The athletics/running thread

[Gary the Enfield]

I'm not ignoring you... I'll answer tomorrow as I can't embed and highlight on't phone and I've composed lengthy answers that just disappear into the ether, so tomorrow when on proper computer

I was told by an orthopaedic surgeon at 14 that I was skeletally unsuited to running and should find something else to do. I ignored this advice because I loved running and was more talented at it than any other sport. I ignored the feck and 25 years on am still competing, albeit with various aches and pains. This is because I have been fortunate enough to meet various sports injury specialists who have helped me through. I haven't achieved anything special but was a decent club runner and have had a lot of great experiences. Had I been born 30 years or more earlier I would have had to quit. Sports science kept me going, and I still have athletic goals.

You've achieved a lot, and probably despite all the sport science stuff not because of it
I was going to post a long answer, but to tell you the truth I think it would only end up winding Mr Enfield into such a tight knot that I'm afraid several of his tendons would snap simultaneously, so I'll feck off out of athletics/running and leave you in peace (for a bit).
(PS. I'm doing my first fell race of the season in 27 days time. I won't be 'training' for it, and I won't warm up beforehand, but I can guarantee two things - I won't have any tears or strains or splints and I won't come last.)

Still no theory of your own? Fair enough. I didn't really expect you to.

As for winding me up? You barely register. Although I think your intention was to fish for bites rather than deliver a cognitive post. Shame. Missed opportunity to inform us unenlightened ones.

Good luck with your fell race. Genuinely. Perhaps you could tell us which race you're doing so we (I) can follow your progress?

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I'm not ignoring you... I'll answer tomorrow as I can't embed and highlight on't phone and I've composed lengthy answers that just disappear into the ether, so tomorrow when on proper computer

I was told by an orthopaedic surgeon at 14 that I was skeletally unsuited to running and should find something else to do. I ignored this advice because I loved running and was more talented at it than any other sport. I ignored the feck and 25 years on am still competing, albeit with various aches and pains. This is because I have been fortunate enough to meet various sports injury specialists who have helped me through. I haven't achieved anything special but was a decent club runner and have had a lot of great experiences. Had I been born 30 years or more earlier I would have had to quit. Sports science kept me going, and I still have athletic goals.

You've achieved a lot, and probably despite all the sport science stuff not because of it
I was going to post a long answer, but to tell you the truth I think it would only end up winding Mr Enfield into such a tight knot that I'm afraid several of his tendons would snap simultaneously, so I'll feck off out of athletics/running and leave you in peace (for a bit).
(PS. I'm doing my first fell race of the season in 27 days time. I won't be 'training' for it, and I won't warm up beforehand, but I can guarantee two things - I won't have any tears or strains or splints and I won't come last.)

Still no theory of your own? Fair enough. I didn't really expect you to.

As for winding me up? You barely register. Although I think your intention was to fish for bites rather than deliver a cognitive post. Shame. Missed opportunity to inform us unenlightened ones.

Good luck with your fell race. Genuinely. Perhaps you could tell us which race you're doing so we (I) can follow your progress?

My theory is really quite straightforward, and consists of this: that sports science is about as scientific as astrology, psychology or intelligent design, and that people who are not in the ninety ninth percentile of athletic ability but who follow regimes that are designed for people in the ninety ninth percentile of athletic ability are more likely to cause injury than those who don't.

Cheers btw. I'll be doing Masson Hill Fell Race on 29th (http://www.massonhillrace.org.uk/index.html)

[Gary the Enfield]

I'm not ignoring you... I'll answer tomorrow as I can't embed and highlight on't phone and I've composed lengthy answers that just disappear into the ether, so tomorrow when on proper computer

I was told by an orthopaedic surgeon at 14 that I was skeletally unsuited to running and should find something else to do. I ignored this advice because I loved running and was more talented at it than any other sport. I ignored the feck and 25 years on am still competing, albeit with various aches and pains. This is because I have been fortunate enough to meet various sports injury specialists who have helped me through. I haven't achieved anything special but was a decent club runner and have had a lot of great experiences. Had I been born 30 years or more earlier I would have had to quit. Sports science kept me going, and I still have athletic goals.

You've achieved a lot, and probably despite all the sport science stuff not because of it
I was going to post a long answer, but to tell you the truth I think it would only end up winding Mr Enfield into such a tight knot that I'm afraid several of his tendons would snap simultaneously, so I'll feck off out of athletics/running and leave you in peace (for a bit).
(PS. I'm doing my first fell race of the season in 27 days time. I won't be 'training' for it, and I won't warm up beforehand, but I can guarantee two things - I won't have any tears or strains or splints and I won't come last.)

Still no theory of your own? Fair enough. I didn't really expect you to.

As for winding me up? You barely register. Although I think your intention was to fish for bites rather than deliver a cognitive post. Shame. Missed opportunity to inform us unenlightened ones.

Good luck with your fell race. Genuinely. Perhaps you could tell us which race you're doing so we (I) can follow your progress?

My theory is really quite straightforward, and consists of this: that sports science is about as scientific as astrology, psychology or intelligent design, and that people who are not in the ninety ninth percentile of athletic ability but who follow regimes that are designed for people in the ninety ninth percentile of athletic ability are more likely to cause injury than those who don't.

Cheers btw. I'll be doing Masson Hill Fell Race on 29th (http://www.massonhillrace.org.uk/index.html)

And if my Aunt had balls she'd be my Uncle.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

...and if we had ham we could make ham and cheese sandwiches if we had cheese.

[Gary the Enfield]

...and if we had ham we could make ham and cheese sandwiches if we had cheese.

... and bread.

[Prufrock]

I'm not ignoring you... I'll answer tomorrow as I can't embed and highlight on't phone and I've composed lengthy answers that just disappear into the ether, so tomorrow when on proper computer

I was told by an orthopaedic surgeon at 14 that I was skeletally unsuited to running and should find something else to do. I ignored this advice because I loved running and was more talented at it than any other sport. I ignored the feck and 25 years on am still competing, albeit with various aches and pains. This is because I have been fortunate enough to meet various sports injury specialists who have helped me through. I haven't achieved anything special but was a decent club runner and have had a lot of great experiences. Had I been born 30 years or more earlier I would have had to quit. Sports science kept me going, and I still have athletic goals.

You've achieved a lot, and probably despite all the sport science stuff not because of it
I was going to post a long answer, but to tell you the truth I think it would only end up winding Mr Enfield into such a tight knot that I'm afraid several of his tendons would snap simultaneously, so I'll feck off out of athletics/running and leave you in peace (for a bit).
(PS. I'm doing my first fell race of the season in 27 days time. I won't be 'training' for it, and I won't warm up beforehand, but I can guarantee two things - I won't have any tears or strains or splints and I won't come last.)

And you won't do nearly as well as you could if you HAD trained and warmed up.

Pre-fecking-cisely.

Anyway, I've got some exercises to do off the internet to speed up my leg being fix. Question is, when do I start? It still hurts and I can't bend it. Too soon? The exercises are only stuff like lying down and lifting my leg, or lying with my knee up and extending my leg.

[KeyserSoze]

Aw man. This is a bit like finding out that Jason Lee is actually a scientologist.

[LeverEnd]

Good luck LLS and enjoy. I'm going to make my fell race debut this summer and fully expect all manner of catastrophes!

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Good luck LLS and enjoy. I'm going to make my fell race debut this summer and fully expect all manner of catastrophes!

Hints:
1. Falling over/ tripping up is always preferable on the up sections to the down bits
2. You can always walk uphill and run down. Believe it or not by doing precisely that I've on occasion actually overtaken people doing precisely the opposite

[Prufrock]

Given we both know what the talk about the Malaysia Airplane is really about

I've Googled 'study warm up prevent injury'. I can see plenty of articles reporting stories of studies proving warm ups prevent injury. I can also see a link to pubmed.gov (something American, can't tell how independent) which reckons of five studies done over 40 years, three showed warm-ups had a positive effect on preventing injury. Two showed they did not. The category for what was included seemed to be 'people doing any physical activity consisting of more than just stretching'.

Given that, plus my own personal experiences, I'm going to stick with my conclusion that warming up prevents injury in the sort of sports I do.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Given we both know what the talk about the Malaysia Airplane is really about

I've Googled 'study warm up prevent injury'. I can see plenty of articles reporting stories of studies proving warm ups prevent injury. I can also see a link to pubmed.gov (something American, can't tell how independent) which reckons of five studies done over 40 years, three showed warm-ups had a positive effect on preventing injury. Two showed they did not. The category for what was included seemed to be 'people doing any physical activity consisting of more than just stretching'.

Given that, plus my own personal experiences, I'm going to stick with my conclusion that warming up prevents injury in the sort of sports I do.

Your recognition regarding the hidden subterfuge of the Malaysian airline quotes does justice to your analytical mind. It's a bit of a waste really that you turned to law and not science. It's an unfortunate fact that many many studies are carried out in the name if science - most of them fail abyssmally to reach the standard my dog would recognise as being meaningful. I know of no study, for instance, that actually looks into non-warm up regimes. If you could point me to one!?

[Gooner Girl]

Cracking time at football training tonight. All the boy footballers have slacked off already so instead of a 3rd we had the entire astro to ourselves - and there were barely any of us tonight either. Eerie and quiet but a lot of fun and I felt fitter and stronger then I have done in a while. Perhaps the boring running is starting to pay off?!

[Prufrock]

Given we both know what the talk about the Malaysia Airplane is really about

I've Googled 'study warm up prevent injury'. I can see plenty of articles reporting stories of studies proving warm ups prevent injury. I can also see a link to pubmed.gov (something American, can't tell how independent) which reckons of five studies done over 40 years, three showed warm-ups had a positive effect on preventing injury. Two showed they did not. The category for what was included seemed to be 'people doing any physical activity consisting of more than just stretching'.

Given that, plus my own personal experiences, I'm going to stick with my conclusion that warming up prevents injury in the sort of sports I do.

Your recognition regarding the hidden subterfuge of the Malaysian airline quotes does justice to your analytical mind. It's a bit of a waste really that you turned to law and not science. It's an unfortunate fact that many many studies are carried out in the name if science - most of them fail abyssmally to reach the standard my dog would recognise as being meaningful. I know of no study, for instance, that actually looks into non-warm up regimes. If you could point me to one!?

. Sarcasm does not become you.

I'm aware plenty studies have huge deficiencies. Can only go off what we have. It's a lot harder to get a conclusive result for something like this where we can't really do a double-blind placebo-controlled test!

I don't know of any, but feel free to do one?

To be fair, from what I can see they simply compared people who did warm up, and their injury rates, to those who did not, and theirs. In three studies those who warmed up had significantly lower levels of injury, in two there was no difference. If they were testing whether non-warming up in fact had the lower injury rate, you'd expect them to do the same test. From what I can see none of the five studies showed a significantly lower injury rate to those who didn't warm up. Course there may be plenty flaws in the study, and plenty other reasons for injuries, but it's better than the evidence for your theory, which is none.

EDIT: Here's a link http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16679062" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Quote on the results compared, "Three of the studies found that performing a warm-up prior to performance significantly reduced the injury risk, and the other two studies found that warming up was not effective in significantly reducing the number of injuries."

I assume that means the two other studies weren't significant either way, although I accept that isn't quite what they say. I assume that if the other two studies showed significant *increase* in injury they would have said so.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Given we both know what the talk about the Malaysia Airplane is really about

I've Googled 'study warm up prevent injury'. I can see plenty of articles reporting stories of studies proving warm ups prevent injury. I can also see a link to pubmed.gov (something American, can't tell how independent) which reckons of five studies done over 40 years, three showed warm-ups had a positive effect on preventing injury. Two showed they did not. The category for what was included seemed to be 'people doing any physical activity consisting of more than just stretching'.

Given that, plus my own personal experiences, I'm going to stick with my conclusion that warming up prevents injury in the sort of sports I do.

Your recognition regarding the hidden subterfuge of the Malaysian airline quotes does justice to your analytical mind. It's a bit of a waste really that you turned to law and not science. It's an unfortunate fact that many many studies are carried out in the name if science - most of them fail abyssmally to reach the standard my dog would recognise as being meaningful. I know of no study, for instance, that actually looks into non-warm up regimes. If you could point me to one!?

. Sarcasm does not become you.

I'm aware plenty studies have huge deficiencies. Can only go off what we have. It's a lot harder to get a conclusive result for something like this where we can't really do a double-blind placebo-controlled test!

I don't know of any, but feel free to do one?

To be fair, from what I can see they simply compared people who did warm up, and their injury rates, to those who did not, and theirs. In three studies those who warmed up had significantly lower levels of injury, in two there was no difference. If they were testing whether non-warming up in fact had the lower injury rate, you'd expect them to do the same test. From what I can see none of the five studies showed a significantly lower injury rate to those who didn't warm up. Course there may be plenty flaws in the study, and plenty other reasons for injuries, but it's better than the evidence for your theory, which is none.

EDIT: Here's a link http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16679062" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Quote on the results compared, "Three of the studies found that performing a warm-up prior to performance significantly reduced the injury risk, and the other two studies found that warming up was not effective in significantly reducing the number of injuries."

I assume that means the two other studies weren't significant either way, although I accept that isn't quite what they say. I assume that if the other two studies showed significant *increase* in injury they would have said so.

I wasn't being sarcastic, honest.
I think that I shall look into these studies a bit more, but I suspect that the dataset is weighted heavily in favour of premium athletes and therefore the paradigm is already set. If we go back to my original statement (the one that started this discussion) we would see that the warm up is just part of what we could call (for want of anything better) an "amateurs using pro technique" regime. The whole regime needs to be studied in order to determine which bits cause what injuries, but I'm pretty damn sure that a cost-benefit analysis would show that those who are on an "amateurs using pro technique" regime have a benefit in regard their PB at the cost of increased injury. The precise weighting of this cost onto one element (the warm up) wouldn't alter my argument if the two studies which show no significance to the warm up in terms of injury are within my paradigm, whereas I think the three that do show a benefit in injury reduction either do not destroy my theory [if they exclude my paradigm] or do destroy my theory [if my paradigm is included] - so, as I say, I shall have a look at them.

[Gary the Enfield]

Given we both know what the talk about the Malaysia Airplane is really about

I've Googled 'study warm up prevent injury'. I can see plenty of articles reporting stories of studies proving warm ups prevent injury. I can also see a link to pubmed.gov (something American, can't tell how independent) which reckons of five studies done over 40 years, three showed warm-ups had a positive effect on preventing injury. Two showed they did not. The category for what was included seemed to be 'people doing any physical activity consisting of more than just stretching'.

Given that, plus my own personal experiences, I'm going to stick with my conclusion that warming up prevents injury in the sort of sports I do.

Your recognition regarding the hidden subterfuge of the Malaysian airline quotes does justice to your analytical mind. It's a bit of a waste really that you turned to law and not science. It's an unfortunate fact that many many studies are carried out in the name if science - most of them fail abyssmally to reach the standard my dog would recognise as being meaningful. I know of no study, for instance, that actually looks into non-warm up regimes. If you could point me to one!?

. Sarcasm does not become you.

I'm aware plenty studies have huge deficiencies. Can only go off what we have. It's a lot harder to get a conclusive result for something like this where we can't really do a double-blind placebo-controlled test!

I don't know of any, but feel free to do one?

To be fair, from what I can see they simply compared people who did warm up, and their injury rates, to those who did not, and theirs. In three studies those who warmed up had significantly lower levels of injury, in two there was no difference. If they were testing whether non-warming up in fact had the lower injury rate, you'd expect them to do the same test. From what I can see none of the five studies showed a significantly lower injury rate to those who didn't warm up. Course there may be plenty flaws in the study, and plenty other reasons for injuries, but it's better than the evidence for your theory, which is none.

EDIT: Here's a link http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16679062" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Quote on the results compared, "Three of the studies found that performing a warm-up prior to performance significantly reduced the injury risk, and the other two studies found that warming up was not effective in significantly reducing the number of injuries."

I assume that means the two other studies weren't significant either way, although I accept that isn't quite what they say. I assume that if the other two studies showed significant *increase* in injury they would have said so.

I wasn't being sarcastic, honest.
I think that I shall look into these studies a bit more, but I suspect that the dataset is weighted heavily in favour of premium athletes and therefore the paradigm is already set. If we go back to my original statement (the one that started this discussion) we would see that the warm up is just part of what we could call (for want of anything better) an "amateurs using pro technique" regime. The whole regime needs to be studied in order to determine which bits cause what injuries, but I'm pretty damn sure that a cost-benefit analysis would show that those who are on an "amateurs using pro technique" regime have a benefit in regard their PB at the cost of increased injury. The precise weighting of this cost onto one element (the warm up) wouldn't alter my argument if the two studies which show no significance to the warm up in terms of injury are within my paradigm, whereas I think the three that do show a benefit in injury reduction either do not destroy my theory [if they exclude my paradigm] or do destroy my theory [if my paradigm is included] - so, as I say, I shall have a look at them.

Go for it Pru. I'll hold your coat.

[Prufrock]

Anyway, I've got some exercises to do off the internet to speed up my leg being fix. Question is, when do I start? It still hurts and I can't bend it. Too soon? The exercises are only stuff like lying down and lifting my leg, or lying with my knee up and extending my leg.

Anyone? I've started doing them. Doing the exercises doesn't hurt, but walking up and especially down stairs does. Should any rehab exercises be hurting a little bit, or should I keep doing the ones that don't until I can progress to the next completely pain-free?

I think the answer is the second, but I want to get back! Only four football games left this year and I'm defo not making this week!

[Harry Genshaw]

Went to a 'CX' class last night. An abs & core work out. Was really effective at getting to those places us runners tend to neglect (hip flexors & glutes). The poster advertised 3 hunky chaps doing their thing. In a class of about 30, I was the only bloke

[Harry Genshaw]

Anyway, I've got some exercises to do off the internet to speed up my leg being fix. Question is, when do I start? It still hurts and I can't bend it. Too soon? The exercises are only stuff like lying down and lifting my leg, or lying with my knee up and extending my leg.

Anyone? I've started doing them. Doing the exercises doesn't hurt, but walking up and especially down stairs does. Should any rehab exercises be hurting a little bit, or should I keep doing the ones that don't until I can progress to the next completely pain-free?

I think the answer is the second, but I want to get back! Only four football games left this year and I'm defo not making this week!

Personally, If the pain is quite significant I'd rest completely with just regular bouts of R.I.C.E. Better to play the last 2 games than hobble off 10 minutes into 1!

[Gary the Enfield]

Anyway, I've got some exercises to do off the internet to speed up my leg being fix. Question is, when do I start? It still hurts and I can't bend it. Too soon? The exercises are only stuff like lying down and lifting my leg, or lying with my knee up and extending my leg.

Anyone? I've started doing them. Doing the exercises doesn't hurt, but walking up and especially down stairs does. Should any rehab exercises be hurting a little bit, or should I keep doing the ones that don't until I can progress to the next completely pain-free?

I think the answer is the second, but I want to get back! Only four football games left this year and I'm defo not making this week!

Are you saying it's still swollen? Is that why you can't bend it? If so stop pissing about with exercises off the internet and go and see a real life Physio. I can recommend two good ones in North London (one is currently involved with the England under 21's set up and my first port of call when I have a SPORTS injury). PM me if you're interested.

[Gooner Girl]

Went to a 'CX' class last night. An abs & core work out. Was really effective at getting to those places us runners tend to neglect (hip flexors & glutes). The poster advertised 3 hunky chaps doing their thing. In a class of about 30, I was the only bloke

Did you wear a leotard?!