The athletics/running thread

[Harry Genshaw]

Went to a 'CX' class last night. An abs & core work out. Was really effective at getting to those places us runners tend to neglect (hip flexors & glutes). The poster advertised 3 hunky chaps doing their thing. In a class of about 30, I was the only bloke

Did you wear a leotard?!

Might do next week!

[Prufrock]

I wasn't being sarcastic, honest.
I think that I shall look into these studies a bit more, but I suspect that the dataset is weighted heavily in favour of premium athletes and therefore the paradigm is already set. If we go back to my original statement (the one that started this discussion) we would see that the warm up is just part of what we could call (for want of anything better) an "amateurs using pro technique" regime. The whole regime needs to be studied in order to determine which bits cause what injuries, but I'm pretty damn sure that a cost-benefit analysis would show that those who are on an "amateurs using pro technique" regime have a benefit in regard their PB at the cost of increased injury. The precise weighting of this cost onto one element (the warm up) wouldn't alter my argument if the two studies which show no significance to the warm up in terms of injury are within my paradigm, whereas I think the three that do show a benefit in injury reduction either do not destroy my theory [if they exclude my paradigm] or do destroy my theory [if my paradigm is included] - so, as I say, I shall have a look at them.

Let's start somewhere where we agree .

It seems to stand to reason to me that the reason people who train hard in pursuit of bettering their PB get injured more than folk who don't is because they are pushing their bodies further towards their limits by running faster, jumping higher or whatever. Clearly the more strenuous the activity, the greater the stress caused. It seems clear that it's the training which causes the injury though, not the warm up.

Also, where I don't quite agree is that this is limited to amateurs. Professionals push themselves to attain better PBs and so also suffer more injuries.

In both those cases I mean 'more injuries' than they would suffer themselves if they had a markedly less active lifestyle. So Stuart Holden would have a much better chance of life going through life injury free if he'd become an accountant.

When amateurs train hard to improve their PB, they do so accepting they run an increased risk of injury. They accept that risk because without training, they won't improve their PB, and that's the goal. I accept that training 'like a pro' causes more injuries, but it also causes better PBs.

Warm-up isn't the same as training, and I don't accept that you can chuck them together and say if training causes injuries, then a warm-up, as part of that training does too. A warm up is an attempt to mitigate that increased risk.

I can't see you've got any evidence that:

a) there should be any difference in the effect of a 'professional training programme' on the relative injury rates of a professional athlete compared to an amateur (adjusted for the fact amateurs are less likely to understand the principles and so overdo it. Some 20st 40-a-day alcoholic who decides he can immediately do Floyd Mayweather's training programme may well find himself f*cked). my point is i don't agree that there is some sort of inherent physical difference which means the programme works for the pros but not the relatively fit amateurs.

b) an increased risk of injury in amateurs who train has any link at all to them warming up. For that to be true that would mean HG could do the same training programme as he does now, but with fewer injuries, simply by not warming up before doing his training regime. Whilst I take your point that no-one has tried to actually study that, I counter by saying there's a logical reason for that, and that's coz it's patently bollocks . Without any contrary evidence, I'm sticking with that!

[Gooner Girl]

Went to a 'CX' class last night. An abs & core work out. Was really effective at getting to those places us runners tend to neglect (hip flexors & glutes). The poster advertised 3 hunky chaps doing their thing. In a class of about 30, I was the only bloke

Did you wear a leotard?!

Might do next week!

Which leisure centre is this? Sounds a good class! I might pop up!

[Prufrock]

Personally, If the pain is quite significant I'd rest completely with just regular bouts of R.I.C.E. Better to play the last 2 games than hobble off 10 minutes into 1!

I know, but it's annoying! I'm not going to play football again until I'm able to do a decent length run without pain.

Anyway, I've got some exercises to do off the internet to speed up my leg being fix. Question is, when do I start? It still hurts and I can't bend it. Too soon? The exercises are only stuff like lying down and lifting my leg, or lying with my knee up and extending my leg.

Anyone? I've started doing them. Doing the exercises doesn't hurt, but walking up and especially down stairs does. Should any rehab exercises be hurting a little bit, or should I keep doing the ones that don't until I can progress to the next completely pain-free?

I think the answer is the second, but I want to get back! Only four football games left this year and I'm defo not making this week!

Are you saying it's still swollen? Is that why you can't bend it? If so stop pissing about with exercises off the internet and go and see a real life Physio. I can recommend two good ones in North London (one is currently involved with the England under 21's set up and my first port of call when I have a SPORTS injury). PM me if you're interested.

It's fine !The swelling stuck around for a few days but has gone now. It's definitely healing, but it's not fully healed yet. It's still sore when I bend it, but I can bend it further and with less pain every day.

Sorry, my question would have been better phrased: Do I need to wait for it to completely heal before I start doing exercises, or do I do them during recovery (I thought I'd read somewhere about muscles growing back short if you don't do some exercises)? And if during recovery, do I do them only to the extent that they don't hurt at all, or does pushing it so it hurts a bit actually help?

[Gary the Enfield]

Personally, If the pain is quite significant I'd rest completely with just regular bouts of R.I.C.E. Better to play the last 2 games than hobble off 10 minutes into 1!

I know, but it's annoying! I'm not going to play football again until I'm able to do a decent length run without pain.

Anyway, I've got some exercises to do off the internet to speed up my leg being fix. Question is, when do I start? It still hurts and I can't bend it. Too soon? The exercises are only stuff like lying down and lifting my leg, or lying with my knee up and extending my leg.

Anyone? I've started doing them. Doing the exercises doesn't hurt, but walking up and especially down stairs does. Should any rehab exercises be hurting a little bit, or should I keep doing the ones that don't until I can progress to the next completely pain-free?

I think the answer is the second, but I want to get back! Only four football games left this year and I'm defo not making this week!

Are you saying it's still swollen? Is that why you can't bend it? If so stop pissing about with exercises off the internet and go and see a real life Physio. I can recommend two good ones in North London (one is currently involved with the England under 21's set up and my first port of call when I have a SPORTS injury). PM me if you're interested.

It's fine !The swelling stuck around for a few days but has gone now. It's definitely healing, but it's not fully healed yet. It's still sore when I bend it, but I can bend it further and with less pain every day.

Sorry, my question would have been better phrased: Do I need to wait for it to completely heal before I start doing exercises, or do I do them during recovery (I thought I'd read somewhere about muscles growing back short if you don't do some exercises)? And if during recovery, do I do them only to the extent that they don't hurt at all, or does pushing it so it hurts a bit actually help?

You shouldn't stress it to the extent it hurts but need to know where the threshold is. A physio can give you an ultrasound session which helps to promote bloodflow to the area ( or you can buy or rent a T.E.N.S. machine from Boots) and I would recommend a sports massage for the muscle soreness.

Muscles grow with exercise. If you don't use them they will recduce down but exercise and healthy foods will soon restore them. They have 'memory'.

Tendons can shorten which is why it's important to stretch them and warm up before any vigorous exercise.

Unless you're a 58 year old fell runner from the Peak District.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I wasn't being sarcastic, honest.
I think that I shall look into these studies a bit more, but I suspect that the dataset is weighted heavily in favour of premium athletes and therefore the paradigm is already set. If we go back to my original statement (the one that started this discussion) we would see that the warm up is just part of what we could call (for want of anything better) an "amateurs using pro technique" regime. The whole regime needs to be studied in order to determine which bits cause what injuries, but I'm pretty damn sure that a cost-benefit analysis would show that those who are on an "amateurs using pro technique" regime have a benefit in regard their PB at the cost of increased injury. The precise weighting of this cost onto one element (the warm up) wouldn't alter my argument if the two studies which show no significance to the warm up in terms of injury are within my paradigm, whereas I think the three that do show a benefit in injury reduction either do not destroy my theory [if they exclude my paradigm] or do destroy my theory [if my paradigm is included] - so, as I say, I shall have a look at them.

Let's start somewhere where we agree .

It seems to stand to reason to me that the reason people who train hard in pursuit of bettering their PB get injured more than folk who don't is because they are pushing their bodies further towards their limits by running faster, jumping higher or whatever. Clearly the more strenuous the activity, the greater the stress caused. It seems clear that it's the training which causes the injury though, not the warm up.

Also, where I don't quite agree is that this is limited to amateurs. Professionals push themselves to attain better PBs and so also suffer more injuries.

In both those cases I mean 'more injuries' than they would suffer themselves if they had a markedly less active lifestyle. So Stuart Holden would have a much better chance of life going through life injury free if he'd become an accountant.

When amateurs train hard to improve their PB, they do so accepting they run an increased risk of injury. They accept that risk because without training, they won't improve their PB, and that's the goal. I accept that training 'like a pro' causes more injuries, but it also causes better PBs.

Warm-up isn't the same as training, and I don't accept that you can chuck them together and say if training causes injuries, then a warm-up, as part of that training does too. A warm up is an attempt to mitigate that increased risk.

I can't see you've got any evidence that:

a) there should be any difference in the effect of a 'professional training programme' on the relative injury rates of a professional athlete compared to an amateur (adjusted for the fact amateurs are less likely to understand the principles and so overdo it. Some 20st 40-a-day alcoholic who decides he can immediately do Floyd Mayweather's training programme may well find himself f*cked). my point is i don't agree that there is some sort of inherent physical difference which means the programme works for the pros but not the relatively fit amateurs.

b) an increased risk of injury in amateurs who train has any link at all to them warming up. For that to be true that would mean HG could do the same training programme as he does now, but with fewer injuries, simply by not warming up before doing his training regime. Whilst I take your point that no-one has tried to actually study that, I counter by saying there's a logical reason for that, and that's coz it's patently bollocks . Without any contrary evidence, I'm sticking with that!

There are certain bits we agree on that we didn't agree on before - probably because we have a better understanding of each others arguments than we did at the start. But there are other bits that I don't think we will agree on, not through a discussion on here anyway. And to be honest, the will to live is draining from me, so I shall desist and do as I said a few pages ago and feck off out of the athletics thread for a bit. Tatty bye, I'll just nip over to the Malaysian airplane and see where we're up to on that front.

[Bruce Rioja]

Can we not just accept that some people need to warm up (and back down) more than others, and some less?

I remember once running out onto the pitch for our first session of pre-season after three months of doing nowt. Someone kicked a ball towards me so I wellied it downfield, 'have it' style. And there went my thigh muscle before we'd even got going. Never fecked about or kicked a ball before warming up properly again.

[Gary the Enfield]

Can we not just accept that some people need to warm up (and back down) more than others, and some less?

I remember once running out onto the pitch for our first session of pre-season after three months of doing nowt. Someone kicked a ball towards me so I wellied it downfield, 'have it' style. And there went my thigh muscle before we'd even got going. Never fecked about or kicked a ball before warming up properly again.

Those of us in the 99th percentile can. I think.

[Gooner Girl]

Can we not just accept that some people need to warm up (and back down) more than others, and some less?

I remember once running out onto the pitch for our first session of pre-season after three months of doing nowt. Someone kicked a ball towards me so I wellied it downfield, 'have it' style. And there went my thigh muscle before we'd even got going. Never fecked about or kicked a ball before warming up properly again.

And how is the exercise routine going Bruce? have you got back into it yet?

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Can we not just accept that some people need to warm up (and back down) more than others, and some less?

I remember once running out onto the pitch for our first session of pre-season after three months of doing nowt. Someone kicked a ball towards me so I wellied it downfield, 'have it' style. And there went my thigh muscle before we'd even got going. Never fecked about or kicked a ball before warming up properly again.

Those of us in the 99th percentile can. I think.

But you're not in the ninety ninth percentile, not unless you're Mo Farah in disguise.

[Gary the Enfield]

Can we not just accept that some people need to warm up (and back down) more than others, and some less?

I remember once running out onto the pitch for our first session of pre-season after three months of doing nowt. Someone kicked a ball towards me so I wellied it downfield, 'have it' style. And there went my thigh muscle before we'd even got going. Never fecked about or kicked a ball before warming up properly again.

Those of us in the 99th percentile can. I think.

But you're not in the ninety ninth percentile, not unless you're Mo Farah in disguise.

Not yours perhaps. I just made my own.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Can we not just accept that some people need to warm up (and back down) more than others, and some less?

I remember once running out onto the pitch for our first session of pre-season after three months of doing nowt. Someone kicked a ball towards me so I wellied it downfield, 'have it' style. And there went my thigh muscle before we'd even got going. Never fecked about or kicked a ball before warming up properly again.

Those of us in the 99th percentile can. I think.

But you're not in the ninety ninth percentile, not unless you're Mo Farah in disguise.

Not yours perhaps. I just made my own.

I've got a theory about that...


oi, come back

[LeverEnd]

Went to a 'CX' class last night. An abs & core work out. Was really effective at getting to those places us runners tend to neglect (hip flexors & glutes). The poster advertised 3 hunky chaps doing their thing. In a class of about 30, I was the only bloke

I'm sure I read a sports science study which proved that classes with a high proportion of women were good for increasing blood flow in male athletes, thus dispensing with the need for a warm-up.
See you there next week.

[Harry Genshaw]

Pendle hill fell race this afternoon. Never been there before, my God that is one steep climb . Was looking forward to just competing again, getting round unscathed and staying out of the bottom 10 which I'm happy to say I managed

What never ceases to amaze me are the number of 60+ & 70+ year old runners doing races like that

[bobo the clown]

I see that today's Sheffield half-marathon has been cancelled literally minutes from the start time. Apparently there was insufficient water at the water stations.

The runners, all gathered at the start area reacted with confudion and not unreasonable anger. Many decided they were going to run anyway and the suffers have been blocking roads to try to prevent th dping.

Someone wants a kicking.

[LeverEnd]

I see that today's Sheffield half-marathon has been cancelled literally minutes from the start time. Apparently there was insufficient water at the water stations.

The runners, all gathered at the start area reacted with confudion and not unreasonable anger. Many decided they were going to run anyway and the suffers have been blocking roads to try to prevent th dping.

Someone wants a kicking.

Apparently the supplier let them down, name and shame.

Does anyone know how Dr Karl off here got on in the Manchester Marathon this morning?

[Prufrock]

I see that today's Sheffield half-marathon has been cancelled literally minutes from the start time. Apparently there was insufficient water at the water stations.

The runners, all gathered at the start area reacted with confudion and not unreasonable anger. Many decided they were going to run anyway and the suffers have been blocking roads to try to prevent th dping.

Someone wants a kicking.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014 ... oad-blocks" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In't that nice?

[LeverEnd]

Since I'm in a predictive mood, anyone like to hazard a guess as to Mo's time and position on Sunday? I'll be marshalling the Bolton 10k (no jokes Harry!) so will miss it but going for 3rd in 2:06:11 (beating Steve Jones' 30 yr old UK record). I'm not expecting him to win on his debut against that field but you can't rule it out.

[Harry Genshaw]

Since I'm in a predictive mood, anyone like to hazard a guess as to Mo's time and position on Sunday? I'll be marshalling the Bolton 10k (no jokes Harry!) so will miss it but going for 3rd in 2:06:11 (beating Steve Jones' 30 yr old UK record). I'm not expecting him to win on his debut against that field but you can't rule it out.

Don't send them the..

That's a good shout. I'll say 4th 2:07:52

I'm doing the Wardle skyline tomorrow. One of my favourite fell races, an undulating 7 miler with a long, seemingly never ending path at the finish, although it was a lovely sunny day when I did it last. Trying to beat 1.04

[LeverEnd]

Since I'm in a predictive mood, anyone like to hazard a guess as to Mo's time and position on Sunday? I'll be marshalling the Bolton 10k (no jokes Harry!) so will miss it but going for 3rd in 2:06:11 (beating Steve Jones' 30 yr old UK record). I'm not expecting him to win on his debut against that field but you can't rule it out.

Don't send them the..

That's a good shout. I'll say 4th 2:07:52

I'm doing the Wardle skyline tomorrow. One of my favourite fell races, an undulating 7 miler with a long, seemingly never ending path at the finish, although it was a lovely sunny day when I did it last. Trying to beat 1.04

Good luck with, Pudsey mate of mine has done it a few times. The famous marshal is the 10k Race director you know, and he has appointed me as one of only 3 Marshall Coordinators. #so proud#bigtime