Freedman out!

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

I'll tell you what I'd like to know - how many games, like yesterday's, has Freedman elected to to bang on an extra defender only for it to prove counter productive? It doesn't work but he insists on doing it. Against Wigan if it wasn't for Bogdan we'd have lost from winning position in a game in which we were always on top.

Personally I thought against Wigan and yesterday we were struggling at the back before Freedman brought the extra player on.

He's brought extra defenders on more times when we've seen out a result than when we've failed.

The way Birmingham pushed forwards towards the end I don't think many managers wouldn't have thrown Zat on to help out aerially. Allardyce for example, would have done the same. Nailed on.

My thoughts were that their lanky bugger was getting on the end of crosses quite a bit (though doing nowt with them) and Zat was brought on to counter that. Whether he did or not is another matter, but I could see why you might do it.

Still, he brought Zat on. Boooooooo. Dougie out

I'm surprised at those views. For a 6'7 giant Zigic won nowt in the air until he scored and he makes Ngog look industrious. He's supposed to be on about 50k a week and has the heart of a pea. I felt we'd have been better served by leaving2 up top and Knight on the bench. Dropping deeper just handed them the initiative imo

I definitely saw a couple of occasions Zigic getting the better of our defenders in the air. He was leaning all over them, but they were nowhere near getting the ball. I agree he did nowt with the headers, but the threat was there. As I said, I could see why he brought Zat on, I don't necessarily agree with it. As far as Dougie's decision making goes, it was one of his less bizarre ones this season.

[Bruce Rioja]

My point precisely, Harry, and it happens game after game. If we're doing something well and are winning - keep doing it!

I'm not sure it works like that, most teams get pushed deeper when they have the lead. Ok sometimes if you dominate possession you don't. But as teams chase a goal they commit more forwards and into the box and you either leave those runners free and unmarked or your players drop deeper to pick them up.

How we played against Birmingham for me was fine, we defended deep but had two or three excellent chances on the break, you just have to take those.

Thought Zigic had a good game. And the Birmingham fans love him. They were stupid in not getting the ball on his head in the box earlier.

Are we sure about this? The one's I know (and they number quite a few) think he's a big, useless c*nt.

[BWFC_Insane]

My point precisely, Harry, and it happens game after game. If we're doing something well and are winning - keep doing it!

I'm not sure it works like that, most teams get pushed deeper when they have the lead. Ok sometimes if you dominate possession you don't. But as teams chase a goal they commit more forwards and into the box and you either leave those runners free and unmarked or your players drop deeper to pick them up.

How we played against Birmingham for me was fine, we defended deep but had two or three excellent chances on the break, you just have to take those.

Thought Zigic had a good game. And the Birmingham fans love him. They were stupid in not getting the ball on his head in the box earlier.

Are we sure about this? The one's I know (and they number quite a few) think he's a big, useless c*nt.

I thought that too, but they seem to like him.

http://www.smallheathalliance.com/read.php?1,1551397" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Worthy4England]

I'm sure we can have a go at the "outs" that were on big money.

N'gog. Stealing a living.
SKD. Past it.

Alonso, Ricketts, Andrews all purported to be on a decent wedge, to which we've added today Eagles, Mears and Knight. That would be £10m+ off if they were all on a "standard" £25k per week premiership salary..some of them, we were fairly sure were higher than 25k. Clearly we tried to unload Mears (and possibly Eagles), but if he didn't want to budge for less then there was little we could do other than pay him up. Stealing tw@t.

Eagles, Mears and Knight haven't left just yet, so for the purposes of this particular discussion are irrelevant. They were available for the entirety of last season.

So that's Ngog, SKD, Alonso and Ricketts. With Andrews and Sordell going out on loan.

In the opposite corner you have Tierney and Spearing signed from Premier League clubs, the 'eye watering' wages of Baptiste, Jermaine Beckford who was on £35k a week (even if he's dropped that to closer to £20k) plus Moritz. And then a small army of loanees of which included at various points, Neil Danns, the Juke and Alan Hutton.

Even with your estimate of a £10m reduction, that'd still put us above everyone but Blackburn, Cardiff and Wolves based off last seasons accounts.

So, to re-iterate, it's impossible to comparing winning games in a league where you're spending more than seven teams with winning games in a league where you're spending more than 20 (actually, I'll remove Cardiff and Wolves and replace them with Wigan, QPR and Reading, so 19 teams).

That assumes we're getting full value for our squad (so a 30k per week Eagles and a 25k per week Mears), play like players worth three times what a 10k player gets. They're clearly nothing like that value to us. In fact you'd struggle to tell them apart most games.

Last years account deal with the preceding 12 months, not this 12 months.

Do you really think we'd have been significantly better playing N'gog, Mears and Eagles? I don't.

[Tombwfc]

I'm sure we can have a go at the "outs" that were on big money.

N'gog. Stealing a living.
SKD. Past it.

Alonso, Ricketts, Andrews all purported to be on a decent wedge, to which we've added today Eagles, Mears and Knight. That would be £10m+ off if they were all on a "standard" £25k per week premiership salary..some of them, we were fairly sure were higher than 25k. Clearly we tried to unload Mears (and possibly Eagles), but if he didn't want to budge for less then there was little we could do other than pay him up. Stealing tw@t.

Eagles, Mears and Knight haven't left just yet, so for the purposes of this particular discussion are irrelevant. They were available for the entirety of last season.

So that's Ngog, SKD, Alonso and Ricketts. With Andrews and Sordell going out on loan.

In the opposite corner you have Tierney and Spearing signed from Premier League clubs, the 'eye watering' wages of Baptiste, Jermaine Beckford who was on £35k a week (even if he's dropped that to closer to £20k) plus Moritz. And then a small army of loanees of which included at various points, Neil Danns, the Juke and Alan Hutton.

Even with your estimate of a £10m reduction, that'd still put us above everyone but Blackburn, Cardiff and Wolves based off last seasons accounts.

So, to re-iterate, it's impossible to comparing winning games in a league where you're spending more than seven teams with winning games in a league where you're spending more than 20 (actually, I'll remove Cardiff and Wolves and replace them with Wigan, QPR and Reading, so 19 teams).

That assumes we're getting full value for our squad (so a 30k per week Eagles and a 25k per week Mears), play like players worth three times what a 10k player gets. They're clearly nothing like that value to us. In fact you'd struggle to tell them apart most games.

Last years account deal with the preceding 12 months, not this 12 months.

Do you really think we'd have been significantly better playing N'gog, Mears and Eagles? I don't.

Last years accounts are the most recent piece of factual data on the subject, so they're a pretty good starting point. I can't think of anyone else in the division who will have drastically increased their wage bill since then.

It assumes that players earning 20 and 30k a week should be better than those on 10k a week. Generally they should (and if you read things like Soccernomics, they generally are). They don't have to be two and three times better than them to win football matches, just better will do.

I'll put to you the same thing I put to TKIZ. Kenny Jackett has won 67% of his games this season. Mourinho 64%. Does that mean you can say Jackett is 'stastically' the better manager and not have people laugh at you?

FWIW, Championship win percentages...

Dougie Freedman - 37.9%
Owen Coyle - 39.8%
Gary Megson - 39.9%

[TKIZ!]

Then 'statistically' yes, Kenny Jackett is the better manager over this season, over his career then I would say no.

Just a quick question where did you get the stats from?

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Then 'statistically' yes, Kenny Jackett is the better manager over this season, over his career then I would say no.

Just a quick question where did you get the stats from?

Yeah, but have you taken net spend into account?

[TKIZ!]

Then 'statistically' yes, Kenny Jackett is the better manager over this season, over his career then I would say no.

Just a quick question where did you get the stats from?

Yeah, but have you taken net spend into account?

Balls, I didn't AT. Will that make a huge impact on the stats?

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Then 'statistically' yes, Kenny Jackett is the better manager over this season, over his career then I would say no.

Just a quick question where did you get the stats from?

Yeah, but have you taken net spend into account?

Balls, I didn't AT. Will that make a huge impact on the stats?

I've no idea. Best ask Dan, he's good with numbers

[TKIZ!]

Then 'statistically' yes, Kenny Jackett is the better manager over this season, over his career then I would say no.

Just a quick question where did you get the stats from?

Yeah, but have you taken net spend into account?

Balls, I didn't AT. Will that make a huge impact on the stats?

I've no idea. Best ask Dan, he's good with numbers

Dan, any ideas? Plus I forgot to include the PPG information as well

[Worthy4England]

I'm sure we can have a go at the "outs" that were on big money.

N'gog. Stealing a living.
SKD. Past it.

Alonso, Ricketts, Andrews all purported to be on a decent wedge, to which we've added today Eagles, Mears and Knight. That would be £10m+ off if they were all on a "standard" £25k per week premiership salary..some of them, we were fairly sure were higher than 25k. Clearly we tried to unload Mears (and possibly Eagles), but if he didn't want to budge for less then there was little we could do other than pay him up. Stealing tw@t.

Eagles, Mears and Knight haven't left just yet, so for the purposes of this particular discussion are irrelevant. They were available for the entirety of last season.

So that's Ngog, SKD, Alonso and Ricketts. With Andrews and Sordell going out on loan.

In the opposite corner you have Tierney and Spearing signed from Premier League clubs, the 'eye watering' wages of Baptiste, Jermaine Beckford who was on £35k a week (even if he's dropped that to closer to £20k) plus Moritz. And then a small army of loanees of which included at various points, Neil Danns, the Juke and Alan Hutton.

Even with your estimate of a £10m reduction, that'd still put us above everyone but Blackburn, Cardiff and Wolves based off last seasons accounts.

So, to re-iterate, it's impossible to comparing winning games in a league where you're spending more than seven teams with winning games in a league where you're spending more than 20 (actually, I'll remove Cardiff and Wolves and replace them with Wigan, QPR and Reading, so 19 teams).

That assumes we're getting full value for our squad (so a 30k per week Eagles and a 25k per week Mears), play like players worth three times what a 10k player gets. They're clearly nothing like that value to us. In fact you'd struggle to tell them apart most games.

Last years account deal with the preceding 12 months, not this 12 months.

Do you really think we'd have been significantly better playing N'gog, Mears and Eagles? I don't.

Last years accounts are the most recent piece of factual data on the subject, so they're a pretty good starting point. I can't think of anyone else in the division who will have drastically increased their wage bill since then.

It assumes that players earning 20 and 30k a week should be better than those on 10k a week. Generally they should (and if you read things like Soccernomics, they generally are). They don't have to be two and three times better than them to win football matches, just better will do.

I'll put to you the same thing I put to TKIZ. Kenny Jackett has won 67% of his games this season. Mourinho 64%. Does that mean you can say Jackett is 'stastically' the better manager and not have people laugh at you?

FWIW, Championship win percentages...

Dougie Freedman - 37.9%
Owen Coyle - 39.8%
Gary Megson - 39.9%

Statistically Jackett has a higher win rate than Mourinho - what's wrong with the assertion that "statistically he has a higher win rate?" I don't believe I mentioned anywhere whether I thought Freedman was better or worse than Coyle in the context of this dialogue (or that Jackett was better than Mourinho), so your point is somewhat lost on me. I could argue that Jackett with his resources has performed every bit as well as Mourinho this season. That doesn't mean I think he should be the next Barca manager.

I'd find it difficult to argue on this season's showing that Mourinho had a better season than Pulis, for example. Do I think Pulis is a "better manager" - no, do I think he's fought above his wage bill and Mourinho has fought under his? Almost certainly.

Coyle clearly signed Championship level players on Premiership salaries. If you put me on 25k per week, it wouldn't improve me as a player, regardless of what it might say in Soccernomics - so that argument is clearly only valid, if the signings were reasonable - which they weren't.

[TKIZ!]

I'm sure we can have a go at the "outs" that were on big money.

N'gog. Stealing a living.
SKD. Past it.

Alonso, Ricketts, Andrews all purported to be on a decent wedge, to which we've added today Eagles, Mears and Knight. That would be £10m+ off if they were all on a "standard" £25k per week premiership salary..some of them, we were fairly sure were higher than 25k. Clearly we tried to unload Mears (and possibly Eagles), but if he didn't want to budge for less then there was little we could do other than pay him up. Stealing tw@t.

Eagles, Mears and Knight haven't left just yet, so for the purposes of this particular discussion are irrelevant. They were available for the entirety of last season.

So that's Ngog, SKD, Alonso and Ricketts. With Andrews and Sordell going out on loan.

In the opposite corner you have Tierney and Spearing signed from Premier League clubs, the 'eye watering' wages of Baptiste, Jermaine Beckford who was on £35k a week (even if he's dropped that to closer to £20k) plus Moritz. And then a small army of loanees of which included at various points, Neil Danns, the Juke and Alan Hutton.

Even with your estimate of a £10m reduction, that'd still put us above everyone but Blackburn, Cardiff and Wolves based off last seasons accounts.

So, to re-iterate, it's impossible to comparing winning games in a league where you're spending more than seven teams with winning games in a league where you're spending more than 20 (actually, I'll remove Cardiff and Wolves and replace them with Wigan, QPR and Reading, so 19 teams).

That assumes we're getting full value for our squad (so a 30k per week Eagles and a 25k per week Mears), play like players worth three times what a 10k player gets. They're clearly nothing like that value to us. In fact you'd struggle to tell them apart most games.

Last years account deal with the preceding 12 months, not this 12 months.

Do you really think we'd have been significantly better playing N'gog, Mears and Eagles? I don't.

Last years accounts are the most recent piece of factual data on the subject, so they're a pretty good starting point. I can't think of anyone else in the division who will have drastically increased their wage bill since then.

It assumes that players earning 20 and 30k a week should be better than those on 10k a week. Generally they should (and if you read things like Soccernomics, they generally are). They don't have to be two and three times better than them to win football matches, just better will do.

I'll put to you the same thing I put to TKIZ. Kenny Jackett has won 67% of his games this season. Mourinho 64%. Does that mean you can say Jackett is 'stastically' the better manager and not have people laugh at you?

FWIW, Championship win percentages...

Dougie Freedman - 37.9%
Owen Coyle - 39.8%
Gary Megson - 39.9%

Statistically Jackett has a higher win rate than Mourinho - what's wrong with the assertion that "statistically he has a higher win rate?" I don't believe I mentioned anywhere whether I thought Freedman was better or worse than Coyle in the context of this dialogue (or that Jackett was better than Mourinho), so your point is somewhat lost on me. I could argue that Jackett with his resources has performed every bit as well as Mourinho this season. That doesn't mean I think he should be the next Barca manager.

I'd find it difficult to argue on this season's showing that Mourinho had a better season than Pulis, for example. Do I think Pulis is a "better manager" - no, do I think he's fought above his wage bill and Mourinho has fought under his? Almost certainly.

Coyle clearly signed Championship level players on Premiership salaries. If you put me on 25k per week, it wouldn't improve me as a player, regardless of what it might say in Soccernomics - so that argument is clearly only valid, if the signings were reasonable - which they weren't.

Is that 25k Premiership money or Championship money, Worthy? It makes a huge difference

[bwfcdan94]

Then 'statistically' yes, Kenny Jackett is the better manager over this season, over his career then I would say no.

Just a quick question where did you get the stats from?

Yeah, but have you taken net spend into account?

Balls, I didn't AT. Will that make a huge impact on the stats?

I've no idea. Best ask Dan, he's good with numbers

Dan, any ideas? Plus I forgot to include the PPG information as well

Freedman is better than Jacket as I think he has probably had a smaller wallet, even if Jackett hasn't spent all the money he's got you can guarantee that Wolves are in a much better financial situation than ourselves and that they gave him a budget bigger than what we gave Freedman because of the necessity to get back in the Championship.

[Worthy4England]

Is that 25k Premiership money or Championship money, Worthy? It makes a huge difference

I'd raise my game for DMB's...

[bwfcdan94]

Personally I think DF has done a better job at Bolton with the resources available to him then Megson or Coyle. Megson spent loads and brought some very good players but didn't know how to get the best out of them. Coyle in essence inherited a dream team probably one of a similar standard to that created by BSA and got good use of them for a season, however we found out by Stoke one day at Wembley, the players lost faith in him and we were never going to be half the team we were after that. If Coyle had sense he would have got rid of some of that team and rebuilt but he didn't and worse was to follow when we were relegated.
OC started poorly and was sacked, it was clear either he was going to have to go or the whole squad we had in the Premiership had to go. Freedman has had time to make his mark on a team that isn't his and has for the most part had to rely on loans to make changes from what he inherited from Coyle, he had the rejuvenate a squad and both towards the end of last season and his first season he has done that. personally I think when all is taken into consideration DF has been vital in steadying a quickly declining ship, each season are team is getting weaker and weaker as we let players go and only replace them with loan signings. Admittedly we still have a very strong squad and Dougie plays dire football, but I think personally he is the best we have had since Todd.

[Enoch]

If you put me on 25k per week, it wouldn't improve me as a player

If you put me on 25k per week, for 36 months, I'd likely think my ship had come in and take the rest of the term off.

[jaffka]

If I was on 25k a week for 36 months, I wouldn't see the end of the contract. I would be dead from whores and ale.

[Enoch]

[bwfcdan94]

If you put me on 25k a week for 36 months I would feel embarrassed and ask to return half of the money at the end of my contract.

[Lord Kangana]

We're still paying Premiership wages to Championship players. I think that's the crux of the argument that's being missed.

That and Kenny Jackett being the obvious successor to David Moyes.