What are you reading tonight?

[William the White]

These murders they committed (and, believe me, I view every death in this conflict as its own tragedy) were different from most 'murders' weren't they? They were committed in a struggle centuries old to rid Ireland of British rule. I feel they have to be seen in that light.

Leaving aside the very plausible possibility that some of the hunger-strikers may have been wrongly convicted - which is a differnent (though, important) issue,

just to be clear in what you are saying...

these murders (you say) were "different"...

you are still saying that they were inexcusable and heinous and monstrous, yes? but - they are somehow in a different category because they were commited within the context of a cause that the perpetrators believed in and were brought up within?

I don't know what you are unclear about thebish. Which bit of my post is puzzling you?

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Anybody read I Am Pilgrim yet?

[thebish]

These murders they committed (and, believe me, I view every death in this conflict as its own tragedy) were different from most 'murders' weren't they? They were committed in a struggle centuries old to rid Ireland of British rule. I feel they have to be seen in that light.

Leaving aside the very plausible possibility that some of the hunger-strikers may have been wrongly convicted - which is a differnent (though, important) issue,

just to be clear in what you are saying...

these murders (you say) were "different"...

you are still saying that they were inexcusable and heinous and monstrous, yes? but - they are somehow in a different category because they were commited within the context of a cause that the perpetrators believed in and were brought up within?

I don't know what you are unclear about thebish. Which bit of my post is puzzling you?

I'm just asking whether what I thought you were saying is what you actually meant to say - as what you have said has clearly already been misinterpreted once...

are you saying that the "difference" with these murders was that they were commited within the context of a cause that the perpetrators believed in and were brought up within?

or do you have some other reason for calling them "different"?

[William the White]

These murders they committed (and, believe me, I view every death in this conflict as its own tragedy) were different from most 'murders' weren't they? They were committed in a struggle centuries old to rid Ireland of British rule. I feel they have to be seen in that light.

Leaving aside the very plausible possibility that some of the hunger-strikers may have been wrongly convicted - which is a differnent (though, important) issue,

just to be clear in what you are saying...

these murders (you say) were "different"...

you are still saying that they were inexcusable and heinous and monstrous, yes? but - they are somehow in a different category because they were commited within the context of a cause that the perpetrators believed in and were brought up within?

I don't know what you are unclear about thebish. Which bit of my post is puzzling you?

I'm just asking whether what I thought you were saying is what you actually meant to say - as what you have said has clearly already been misinterpreted once...

are you saying that the "difference" with these murders was that they were commited within the context of a cause that the perpetrators believed in and were brought up within?

or do you have some other reason for calling them "different"?

I am saying that the deaths occurred in the context of a centuries old struggle to rid Ireland of British rule. What started as a struggle for civil rights in the six counties soon reassembled itself into a familiar pattern of Irish nationalism, Orange loyalism and British armed forces, initially welcomed then resisted with increasing fury. So, very different from the common or garden murder, yes.

[Prufrock]

Started on Wolf Hall over the weekend and now about half way through.

I like it, it's got the easy appeal of Game of Thrones but with depth and actual proper writing.

One thing that is really irritating me though, and I mean really pissing me off, is the constant, needless use of vague third person pronouns. Thomas Cromwell is often introduced simply as 'he', even in a sentence which follows another describing a different man. It means you're constantly re-reading passages trying to figure out if 'he' is the last bloke mentioned, or whether we're now on about TC again. It crops up too often to be an accident, but I cannot see the point. It adds nothing but unnecessary and uninformative confusion. It's a shame because I'm really enjoying the bits I only need to read once!

[bobo the clown]

Started on Wolf Hall over the weekend and now about half way through.

I like it, it's got the easy appeal of Game of Thrones but with depth and actual proper writing.

One thing that is really irritating me though, and I mean really pissing me off, is the constant, needless use of vague third person pronouns. Thomas Cromwell is often introduced simply as 'he', even in a sentence which follows another describing a different man. It means you're constantly re-reading passages trying to figure out if 'he' is the last bloke mentioned, or whether we're now on about TC again. It crops up too often to be an accident, but I cannot see the point. It adds nothing but unnecessary and uninformative confusion. It's a shame because I'm really enjoying the bits I only need to read once!

I found the style really quite disconcerting. The story is almost told as an inference rather than a direct tale and, yes, you are required to know what she's on about. Like a written version of the BBC's recent use of mumbling in some 'high' drama.

I really, really had to make myself continue with the book. For what it's worth she seems to have toned it down a little in 'Bring Up the Bodies'.

Heresy maybe but give me CJ Sansom's style anytime.

[Prufrock]

It's getting f8cking annoying now. Had to re-read about 4 pages last night as it turned out the 'he' at the beginning of this bit wasn't the bloke whose name was mentioned in the sentence before, but Cromwell.

[Prufrock]

Finished Wolf Hall at the weekend. I did enjoy it in the end, despite my occasional frustration. One gripe aside it is really well-written, particularly for that kind of plot-driven prose than often ends up with the cringe-worthy efforts of Dan Brown and George Ar Ar Ar Ar Martin. Nevertheless, having read The Testament of Mary directly before, I wouldn't have picked WH as the Booker prize winner. I know they were different years, and I haven't read the Luminaries yet, but I didn't really think Wolf Hall said a lot. Nicely written sure, but beyond that...

Catch-22 now. Two chapters in and it's nothing like I expected so far. Enjoying it though.

[William the White]

Finished Wolf Hall at the weekend. I did enjoy it in the end, despite my occasional frustration. One gripe aside it is really well-written, particularly for that kind of plot-driven prose than often ends up with the cringe-worthy efforts of Dan Brown and George Ar Ar Ar Ar Martin. Nevertheless, having read The Testament of Mary directly before, I wouldn't have picked WH as the Booker prize winner. I know they were different years, and I haven't read the Luminaries yet, but I didn't really think Wolf Hall said a lot. Nicely written sure, but beyond that...

Catch-22 now. Two chapters in and it's nothing like I expected so far. Enjoying it though.

In Yossarian and Major Major Heller created two of the funniest/tragic characters in fiction. and this may still be the best anti-war satire ever. Enjoy!

[Burnden Paddock]

I can confirm what we all knew all along. Rodney Marsh is a complete and utter c*nt. Excuses his own behaviour and that of similar types, due to them being, wait for it...... 'loose cannons'.

Contradicts himself continually and repeats the same stories throughout the book.

I wonder if I could get a refund on my £1?

[Il Pirate]

Has anybody read, and better still, could give me a quick but broad review, (I'm looking at WtW here! ). Orwell's Homage to Catalonia? Answers needed by fri please..............

[TANGODANCER]

Has anybody read, and better still, could give me a quick but broad review, (I'm looking at WtW here! ). Orwell's Homage to Catalonia? Answers needed by fri please..............

There's a decent enough summary here P.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homage_to_Catalonia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[William the White]

Has anybody read, and better still, could give me a quick but broad review, (I'm looking at WtW here! ). Orwell's Homage to Catalonia? Answers needed by fri please..............

It is a magnificent book. There is nothing better from an English writer that evokes the spirit, the feeling, of revolutionary Barcelona in the first year of the Spanish revolution/Civil War.

Orwell arrives as a committed anti-fascist and finds himself becoming a committed revolutionary.

Because he is a member of the British Independent Labour Party he has an introduction to their sister party in Spain - POUM (Workers Party of Marxist Unification) which is anti-Stalinist, of Trotskyist sympathies, but less sectarian. POUM is important in Catalonia and is a close ally of the Anarchist trade union CNT (National confederation of Labour) and FAI (Iberian Anarchist Federation).

Orwell found himself overwhelmed by the revolution's atmosphere and achievements, joins the POUM militia and finds himself on the Aragon front, facing Franco's army in the bitter winter of 1936/37.

Here his commitment to the revolution continues though he is frustrated by elements of it.

He is wounded by a bullet in the throat and sent back to Barcelona for medical treatment. He arrives in May 1937 to witness the start of the counter revolution - led by the communist Party, that has forsaken revolutionary principles and is attempting to end working class power in Barcelona. (This is Orwell's view in the book - historically contested, of course).

The CP-supported forces seize control of the Barcelona Telephone Exchange, an anarchist stronghold, Anarchist workers resist, the POUM supports the Anarchists, there are five days of fighting and the Anarchist/POUM forces are defeated. It is the beginning of the end of the revolutionary conquests. The POUM is declared illegal. its supporters are arrested. Many are tortured and executed. Orwell himself has to go into hiding, and eventually escapes the country.

After this, in the rest of his life, Orwell no longer believes in the Communist Party as a revolutionary force anywhere in the world or the Soviet Union as a revolutionary Socialist country. Homage to Catalonia outlines the experiences of disillusion that will lead to 'Animal Farm' and '1984'. Orwell remains on the left, but forever hostile to Stalinism and totalitarianism of any kind.

It is a brilliant book.

Incidentally, there is a George Orwell Square bang in the middle of Barcelona.

PM me if I can help any more.

[TANGODANCER]

Mark Twain on the topic of ettiquette:

http://www.walternelson.com/dr/twain-etiquette" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[clapton is god]

Has anybody read, and better still, could give me a quick but broad review, (I'm looking at WtW here! ). Orwell's Homage to Catalonia? Answers needed by fri please..............

It is a magnificent book. There is nothing better from an English writer that evokes the spirit, the feeling, of revolutionary Barcelona in the first year of the Spanish revolution/Civil War.

Orwell arrives as a committed anti-fascist and finds himself becoming a committed revolutionary.

Because he is a member of the British Independent Labour Party he has an introduction to their sister party in Spain - POUM (Workers Party of Marxist Unification) which is anti-Stalinist, of Trotskyist sympathies, but less sectarian. POUM is important in Catalonia and is a close ally of the Anarchist trade union CNT (National confederation of Labour) and FAI (Iberian Anarchist Federation).

Orwell found himself overwhelmed by the revolution's atmosphere and achievements, joins the POUM militia and finds himself on the Aragon front, facing Franco's army in the bitter winter of 1936/37.

Here his commitment to the revolution continues though he is frustrated by elements of it.

He is wounded by a bullet in the throat and sent back to Barcelona for medical treatment. He arrives in May 1937 to witness the start of the counter revolution - led by the communist Party, that has forsaken revolutionary principles and is attempting to end working class power in Barcelona. (This is Orwell's view in the book - historically contested, of course).

The CP-supported forces seize control of the Barcelona Telephone Exchange, an anarchist stronghold, Anarchist workers resist, the POUM supports the Anarchists, there are five days of fighting and the Anarchist/POUM forces are defeated. It is the beginning of the end of the revolutionary conquests. The POUM is declared illegal. its supporters are arrested. Many are tortured and executed. Orwell himself has to go into hiding, and eventually escapes the country.

After this, in the rest of his life, Orwell no longer believes in the Communist Party as a revolutionary force anywhere in the world or the Soviet Union as a revolutionary Socialist country. Homage to Catalonia outlines the experiences of disillusion that will lead to 'Animal Farm' and '1984'. Orwell remains on the left, but forever hostile to Stalinism and totalitarianism of any kind.

It is a brilliant book.

Incidentally, there is a George Orwell Square bang in the middle of Barcelona.

PM me if I can help any more.

I'm going to have to read this one too. Just come back from Catalonia where I visited several civil war sites including The River Ebra, Gandesa, Corbera d'Ebra where the ruined town remains as a monument and the trench systems are being restored, and the fabulous village of Miravet. I felt a deep connection with the area and have come back needing to know more. Currently reading Beevers account but gladly accept this recommendation too. I'll put a couple of photos up in the relevant forum later.

[KeyserSoze]

Haven't read the Orwell book (ashamedly!) but if you're after more media of that ilk you can't go wrong with Ken Loach's Of Land and Freedom. Absolutely top stuff.

EDIT: sorry, just called Land and Freedom

[clapton is god]

Noted with thanks KS.

[Il Pirate]

Many, many thanks for your help, particularly Will for his excellent summary. A dear ex colleague and sometime drinking partner of mine bought me the book about 7/8 weeks ago; he stated it changed his life & outlook on the world. ( A pretty bold statement!). We are meeting up again on fri afternoon, but the book has remained on the shelf of shame whilst I work my way through some Paul Auster & a biography of Samuel Beckett; (Again!). At least with a little knowledge I can try to bluff and say I've been 'dipping in', but saving the full read for an upcoming weekend away...............Can't I?......

[TANGODANCER]

Many, many thanks for your help, particularly Will for his excellent summary. A dear ex colleague and sometime drinking partner of mine bought me the book about 7/8 weeks ago; he stated it changed his life & outlook on the world. ( A pretty bold statement!). We are meeting up again on fri afternoon, but the book has remained on the shelf of shame whilst I work my way through some Paul Auster & a biography of Samuel Beckett; (Again!). At least with a little knowledge I can try to bluff and say I've been 'dipping in', but saving the full read for an upcoming weekend away...............Can't I?......

The Assasination of Federico Garcia Lorca is related Pirate. Fascinating and talented man who became a victim of the system.

[William the White]

Haven't read the Orwell book (ashamedly!) but if you're after more media of that ilk you can't go wrong with Ken Loach's Of Land and Freedom. Absolutely top stuff.

EDIT: sorry, just called Land and Freedom

Indeed, KS, the film clearly has Homage to Catalonia as its major source!