The Great Art Debate

[TANGODANCER]

The Dancer will leave the Mses Emin and Ono alone and stick with Van Gogh.

I know most of his basic history, but he's immensely interesting in his variety of subject and style. Like Turner, he churned out a massive amount of works, both in oil and watercolour that bear some study. (Google Images is a great source of paintings by almost every artist). Why did he paint his chair, for instance, or that of Paul Gaugain, or a pair of boots, or his own bedroom? I think (an opinion) that he had a compulsion to paint that, being unable to be outside after dark because of the light, he looked around himself and just painted what he saw. His self portraits may have been done that way? ( just speculation but based on my own actions. My sketchbook has things like the kitchen window in the rain, or the garden path flags underwater, birds in the garden and all sort of odd things). Van Gogh's moods are reflected in his work, himself setting out to paint early on a sunny morning, a man head in hands in despair, landscapes, still life, portraits, flowers and stars.

His influence from Oriental silk prints were another aspect of him and the point about him using the digitalis drug and the colour yellow is again interesting. A fascinating man, he
produced in the region of 860 oil paintings and more than 1,300 watercolors, drawings, sketches, and prints.

[Bruce Rioja]

Just assumed it was Bruce.

A common misconception.

[William the White]

You feeling stronger on a Wednesday then Billy?

The possibility of the clown making deep and insightful comments on Emin (or, indeed, anything else) was too enticing to resist...

Ask Crayons. Don't take my word for it !

There's no need to ask crayons.

You could simply repeat them so all of us can get the benefit.

[bobo the clown]

You feeling stronger on a Wednesday then Billy?

The possibility of the clown making deep and insightful comments on Emin (or, indeed, anything else) was too enticing to resist...

Ask Crayons. Don't take my word for it !

There's no need to ask crayons.

You could simply repeat them so all of us can get the benefit.

I have no idea what I said that was insightful ... hence the "(apparently)".

I don't plan, rehearse or record my masterful deliveries, they are just natural to me. I suppose you've either go it or you haven't.

[TANGODANCER]

I really like this Van Gogh: "Painter on his way to work"

[Beefheart]

I went to the Van Gogh museum in Amsterdam, can't say there was a lot in there that I liked.

[William the White]

You feeling stronger on a Wednesday then Billy?

The possibility of the clown making deep and insightful comments on Emin (or, indeed, anything else) was too enticing to resist...

Ask Crayons. Don't take my word for it !

There's no need to ask crayons.

You could simply repeat them so all of us can get the benefit.

I have no idea what I said that was insightful ... hence the "(apparently)".

I don't plan, rehearse or record my masterful deliveries, they are just natural to me. I suppose you've either go it or you haven't.

I suppose Crayons might remember since you made such a big impression on him.

How about it Mr Crayons?

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I fear this has now been built up into something that the facts of what was said might not support.

He showed no signs of appreciating Emin's art, but, after connecting her traumatic life experiences with work his wife does, seemed to think that she perhaps shouldn't be condemned for her output after all (Emin - that is - not his wife).

Result!

[Worthy4England]

I fear this has now been built up into something that the facts of what was said might not support.

He showed no signs of appreciating Emin's art, but, after connecting her traumatic life experiences with work his wife does, seemed to think that she perhaps shouldn't be condemned for her output after all (Emin - that is - not his wife).

Result!

He's such a bloody wimp!

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I fear this has now been built up into something that the facts of what was said might not support.

He showed no signs of appreciating Emin's art, but, after connecting her traumatic life experiences with work his wife does, seemed to think that she perhaps shouldn't be condemned for her output after all (Emin - that is - not his wife).

Result!

He's such a bloody wimp!

[bobo the clown]

I fear this has now been built up into something that the facts of what was said might not support.

He showed no signs of appreciating Emin's art, but, after connecting her traumatic life experiences with work his wife does, seemed to think that she perhaps shouldn't be condemned for her output after all (Emin - that is - not his wife).

Result!

He's such a bloody wimp!

So, you bring out the inner wimp in me and then mock. I'm bereft.

I'm off to unmake my bed now !!

[William the White]

I fear this has now been built up into something that the facts of what was said might not support.

He showed no signs of appreciating Emin's art, but, after connecting her traumatic life experiences with work his wife does, seemed to think that she perhaps shouldn't be condemned for her output after all (Emin - that is - not his wife).

Result!

Ah, so claims of profundity and insight slightly exaggerated. I'm not all that surprised.

[Prufrock]

I fear this has now been built up into something that the facts of what was said might not support.

He showed no signs of appreciating Emin's art, but, after connecting her traumatic life experiences with work his wife does, seemed to think that she perhaps shouldn't be condemned for her output after all (Emin - that is - not his wife).

Result!

I meant to write something more substantial after I went around but never quite got around to it and it seems a bit distant now.

The one thing that struck me most was a fairly insignificant exhibit of a few little sketches done, I think, by one or both of the Chapman brothers. They were demonic scenes, perhaps from Dante, and looked really, well, cool. The sort of enviable craft the 'artsy' kids at school had, who'd design something amazing for a school project and it be far beyond anything my limited talents could produce. I don't think these particular pieces really said a lot, but they showed a very high level of craftmanship. It made me wonder, if they were capable of producing such technically well-done stuff, why didn't they do that in all their work, instead of churning out rubbish that 'anyone could do'.

If it is all a con, as at least some of it I'm convinced is (and their comments you quoted show they're certainly capable of that approach), then it is a con of breath-taking cynicism. I'm not sure I see a character like Emin as being capable of that. With that allowed, you have to open your mind slightly to the background that informs the meaning of these pieces and see if you can accept that they have merit. To dismiss all of the 'modern art' stuff is to miss something. It's easy to do when faced with some of the bluster that is produced, but whilst I'm convinced some of it is a con, I'm also convinced that some isn't.

The difference between your description of Emin's 'Trust Me', and the waffle Tango found on the internet and quoted above is night and day. The explanation of the symbolism of the garish neon, and the meaning of those words has an unmistakable ring of truth, whereas the piffle TD found is clearly barely-sensible pseudo-intellectual nonsense. I can't see how anyone can't see that distinction!

[TANGODANCER]

The difference between your description of Emin's 'Trust Me', and the waffle Tango found on the internet and quoted above is night and day. The explanation of the symbolism of the garish neon, and the meaning of those words has an unmistakable ring of truth, whereas the piffle TD found is clearly barely-sensible pseudo-intellectual nonsense. I can't see how anyone can't see that distinction!

Just suppose - go on be lenient - and credit some with half a brain enough to see exactly what it is and comment sarcastically on the absolute monumental bullshit that it stands for. My views on art are somewhat different than previously in as much as I don't blame the Emins and all the rest for making statements, be they good ,bad, or blatant piffle. No one is forced to watch or listen so the obvious answer is, in my case, ignore. No, those I blame are the semi-morons who trot out rubbish like I posted and want to blame everyone for being too thick to see what their descriptions actually mean. Have half the people who write such drivel ever created a decent boiled egg or painted so much as a skirting board? Personally, I've seen my share of art both here and abroad and, in the end it still comes down to what I said at the start of the thread; it's personal taste: One man's ideas of visions of sexual truths or visionary inspirations, are another's van load of household rubbish for the tip or firewood for their new wood-burning stoves. You either like it or you don't, but it's always best to make your own mind up.

[Prufrock]

I am crediting you for spotting that that was bullshit!

My point is that's it's clearly distinct from some other critiques of art-works, in this case Crayons' own, which do ring true, and cannot be lumped in with rubbish which is similar in an extremely superficial sense, like that you found.

[TANGODANCER]

I am crediting you for spotting that that was bullshit!

My point is that's it's clearly distinct from some other critiques of art-works, in this case Crayons' own, which do ring true, and cannot be lumped in with rubbish which is similar in an extremely superficial sense, like that you found.

No argument with that, couched in such terms it's hard to even tell if they have a point or not.

[William the White]

The difference between your description of Emin's 'Trust Me', and the waffle Tango found on the internet and quoted above is night and day. The explanation of the symbolism of the garish neon, and the meaning of those words has an unmistakable ring of truth, whereas the piffle TD found is clearly barely-sensible pseudo-intellectual nonsense. I can't see how anyone can't see that distinction!

Just suppose - go on be lenient - and credit some with half a brain enough to see exactly what it is and comment sarcastically on the absolute monumental bullshit that it stands for. My views on art are somewhat different than previously in as much as I don't blame the Emins and all the rest for making statements, be they good ,bad, or blatant piffle. No one is forced to watch or listen so the obvious answer is, in my case, ignore. No, those I blame are the semi-morons who trot out rubbish like I posted and want to blame everyone for being too thick to see what their descriptions actually mean. Have half the people who write such drivel ever created a decent boiled egg or painted so much as a skirting board? Personally, I've seen my share of art both here and abroad and, in the end it still comes down to what I said at the start of the thread; it's personal taste: One man's ideas of visions of sexual truths or visionary inspirations, are another's van load of household rubbish for the tip or firewood for their new wood-burning stoves. You either like it or you don't, but it's always best to make your own mind up.

To say to both of you...

It isn't arty bullshit.

It is deliberate parody thereof...

[Prufrock]

I'm uncrediting Tango then! TBF, all good parody has a ring of truth to it. There are definitely people who come out with pseudo-intellectual shite like that when talking about modern art, and I think people are put off by it.

[William the White]

I'm uncrediting Tango then! TBF, all good parody has a ring of truth to it. There are definitely people who come out with pseudo-intellectual shite like that when talking about modern art, and I think people are put off by it.

I had to read the following post to be sure... but that made it a cert...

But, actually, most criticism of modern art is intelligent and perceptive - even when you disagree with it. Can you give an example of the obscurantist bullshit you mean?

I just feel people make claims all over the debate that are partially justified at best...

[TANGODANCER]

Robert Murray (deceased) an apparently very well respected art critic said: "Artists like Jeff Koons and – he later added – Damien Hirst were barely real artists at all, but grotesque market manipulators. " Would that class as intelligent and perceptive?