The Politics Thread

[thebish]

Oh and chuck rockets or missiles at me then you should expect a massive overwhelming response.

I don't believe you.

the IRA bombed mainland UK - where you live. what did you do in response?

[Hoboh]

Oh and chuck rockets or missiles at me then you should expect a massive overwhelming response.

I don't believe you.

the IRA bombed mainland UK - where you live. what did you do in response?

The Arndale was a shithole! anyway, I'd execute everyone involved, Adams and McGuiness would be dust by now and feck the border I'd have sent forces down south after them, big time.
Or quite simply we could have done a Putin and just armed the loyalists, stopped sailings and flights to the mainland and used MI5 to bust supporters over here.
Simple enough for you?
Whose deflecting things now

[Lord Kangana]

The first thing is, you do not feckin' vote extremists into Government and expect everything to be rosy! .

And yet Israel is a democracy and it still kills large amounts of children in Gaza. If it was your child that had been killed (and I'll reiterate, there are many) would you respond by turning the other cheek? (That, by the way is a rhetorical question - you've made your position quite clear).

So how does your solution stop the situation from perpetuating?

[Hoboh]

The first thing is, you do not feckin' vote extremists into Government and expect everything to be rosy! .

And yet Israel is a democracy and it still kills large amounts of children in Gaza. If it was your child that had been killed (and I'll reiterate, there are many) would you respond by turning the other cheek? (That, by the way is a rhetorical question - you've made your position quite clear).

So how does your solution stop the situation from perpetuating?

First you need to erode the fears of the Israelis as well as put pressure on them, if there is no tangible enemy then gradually the general public would fail to see the need for the massive amount of militarization and spending and the ‘hawks’ influence would wane.
Outsiders such as Iran, Turkey, Qatar, Iran etc need to be firmly told to keep their noses and cash to militants out, then maybe we could see space for a solutuion

[Gary the Enfield]

The first thing is, you do not feckin' vote extremists into Government and expect everything to be rosy! .

And yet Israel is a democracy and it still kills large amounts of children in Gaza. If it was your child that had been killed (and I'll reiterate, there are many) would you respond by turning the other cheek? (That, by the way is a rhetorical question - you've made your position quite clear).

So how does your solution stop the situation from perpetuating?

First you need to erode the fears of the Israelis as well as put pressure on them, if there is no tangible enemy then gradually the general public would fail to see the need for the massive amount of militarization and spending and the ‘hawks’ influence would wane.
Outsiders such as Iran, Turkey, Qatar, Iran etc need to be firmly told to keep their noses and cash to militants out, then maybe we could see space for a solutuion

Like when the British Government funded and trained the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan against the Russian aggressor? How did that resolve itself?

[Hoboh]

The first thing is, you do not feckin' vote extremists into Government and expect everything to be rosy! .

And yet Israel is a democracy and it still kills large amounts of children in Gaza. If it was your child that had been killed (and I'll reiterate, there are many) would you respond by turning the other cheek? (That, by the way is a rhetorical question - you've made your position quite clear).

So how does your solution stop the situation from perpetuating?

First you need to erode the fears of the Israelis as well as put pressure on them, if there is no tangible enemy then gradually the general public would fail to see the need for the massive amount of militarization and spending and the ‘hawks’ influence would wane.
Outsiders such as Iran, Turkey, Qatar, Iran etc need to be firmly told to keep their noses and cash to militants out, then maybe we could see space for a solutuion

Like when the British Government funded and trained the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan against the Russian aggressor? How did that resolve itself?

Hey not saying we are innocent of doing stuff like that, just why nations feel the urge to interfere all over the place? A lot of this type of behaviour is down to the we got to do something brigades without saying what exactly!

[Prufrock]

No suspicions on my part other than a general concern that before I give money to any charity I like to find out who they are and what they do. Until WtW mentioned them I'd never heard of MAP UK so I was wondering if he could tell me about them.

just out of interest - given your admirably watchful strategy (I generally do the same) - which charities do you most favour?

I don't do as much as I could or should. My two regulars are Shelter and NSPCC. Kids and Homeless are both things I feel strongly about so they get past my 'I'm only my mid-twenties, I'm still not fully qualified, I'll give more when I earn more' cop-out mentality. Also, both spend more than 70% of their income on charitable activities which is a big one for me. I can't stand charity muggers or look-at-me swimming with sharks things. I don't buy their argument that it 'gets people to give more'. I'm sure it increases their own revenues but I'm not sure it necessarily increases the overall 'net' total of money spent on charity, rather than diverting a bigger share of it to the particular charity in question.

Other than that, my 'charity' tends to extend as far as giving old clothes to the Cancer Research down the road, and one-off donations to causes like this. I'm not sure on MAP yet, will have a proper look into that, and the one you mentioned.

[thebish]

No suspicions on my part other than a general concern that before I give money to any charity I like to find out who they are and what they do. Until WtW mentioned them I'd never heard of MAP UK so I was wondering if he could tell me about them.

just out of interest - given your admirably watchful strategy (I generally do the same) - which charities do you most favour?

I don't do as much as I could or should. My two regulars are Shelter and NSPCC. Kids and Homeless are both things I feel strongly about so they get past my 'I'm only my mid-twenties, I'm still not fully qualified, I'll give more when I earn more' cop-out mentality. Also, both spend more than 70% of their income on charitable activities which is a big one for me. I can't stand charity muggers or look-at-me swimming with sharks things. I don't buy their argument that it 'gets people to give more'. I'm sure it increases their own revenues but I'm not sure it necessarily increases the overall 'net' total of money spent on charity, rather than diverting a bigger share of it to the particular charity in question.

Other than that, my 'charity' tends to extend as far as giving old clothes to the Cancer Research down the road, and one-off donations to causes like this. I'm not sure on MAP yet, will have a proper look into that, and the one you mentioned.

you also give/gave time to womens' refuge work - didn't you??

[Prufrock]

No suspicions on my part other than a general concern that before I give money to any charity I like to find out who they are and what they do. Until WtW mentioned them I'd never heard of MAP UK so I was wondering if he could tell me about them.

And have I told you enough to reassure you?

Enough to make me consider them, yes. Going to compare with Bish's and see which I'm happier with. Proper 21st century consumer giver, me .

[Prufrock]

I'm keeping out of this one, they keep trying to toast me in the Guardian comments for inconveniently pointing out that if Hamas was not lobbing missiles and rockets into Israel there would be no excuse for the Iron fist policy.

i suspect that it a very naive view of the situation...

Not really, no tunnels, no rockets, no air attacks nor ground invasion.

I see you have already added a second excuse to the one thing that caused the iron fist policy - now it's rockets AND tunnels!

there would follow 1001 supplementary excuses...

the rockets and the tunnels don't help - but let's not pretend they are all that's causing this.

and - what else do you do if you are blockaded on all sides and denied airspace other than build tunnels??

The first thing is, you do not feckin' vote extremists into Government and expect everything to be rosy! A vote for Hamas was a vote for a continuation of the situation.
Just like in large parts of the Muslim world, the moderates roll over to the mad men.
I would bet your ass that many at the top of Hamas have much more than relief of Gaza at the top of their agenda.
Oh and I think the tunnels are relevant here.

Well the Israelis have hardly elected the Greens and the Pacifists have they?

This is the problem with it all, it's well past the point of 'who started it'. If you say you feel sorry for the Palestinians, you get 'well, what about Hamas?', if you say you feel sorry for the Israelis, you get 'what about the Israeli govt?'. The divide between sympathy and anger shouldn't be 'Hamas/ Israeli Govt', or 'Palestinians/ Israelis', but 'normal innocent people/ their governments'. I have a great deal of sympathy for the Israeli people. As 'relatively' safe as they are, it still must be terrifying wondering if you'll be hit by the one that gets through, or whether it will be bus bombs that start up again. It must also be unpleasant to have somebody hell-bent on you elimination firing missiles indiscriminately at you. In real terms I obviously have much more immediate sympathy for the ordinary Palestinians who are living in hell right now.

I wrote about how Hamas are awful, and about how they know full well the response that will come from Israel, but don't let's kid ourselves that Israel are unwilling aggressors in this, guilty only of overstepping the mark. Several reports have come out that the Israeli Secret Service knew the kidnapped kids were dead pretty quickly, and that they were killed by a renegade group not under central control from Hamas, but used it as a pretext to go looking for the leaders under cover of a 'search mission'. They've also gone back on previous ceasefire agreements once it looked like the Palestinians might get their shit together instead of fighting amongst themselves. For every misstep the Israeli govt claims Hamas have made, Hamas can claim another back, and the Israelis another one back and again ad infinitum/nauseam. They're both more interested in their own ends, and don't care how many innocent Palestinians die to get there.

[Prufrock]

No suspicions on my part other than a general concern that before I give money to any charity I like to find out who they are and what they do. Until WtW mentioned them I'd never heard of MAP UK so I was wondering if he could tell me about them.

just out of interest - given your admirably watchful strategy (I generally do the same) - which charities do you most favour?

I don't do as much as I could or should. My two regulars are Shelter and NSPCC. Kids and Homeless are both things I feel strongly about so they get past my 'I'm only my mid-twenties, I'm still not fully qualified, I'll give more when I earn more' cop-out mentality. Also, both spend more than 70% of their income on charitable activities which is a big one for me. I can't stand charity muggers or look-at-me swimming with sharks things. I don't buy their argument that it 'gets people to give more'. I'm sure it increases their own revenues but I'm not sure it necessarily increases the overall 'net' total of money spent on charity, rather than diverting a bigger share of it to the particular charity in question.

Other than that, my 'charity' tends to extend as far as giving old clothes to the Cancer Research down the road, and one-off donations to causes like this. I'm not sure on MAP yet, will have a proper look into that, and the one you mentioned.

you also give/gave time to womens' refuge work - didn't you??

Did, for this fab organisation. Hoping to start doing that again going back to Uni this year. Was through Uni, interviewing victims of domestic violence and then drafting their witness statements for court.

What are your criteria for deciding who to give to financially Bish?

[LeverEnd]

If Palestinians vote for a moderate government, and the Israelis trample all over it while backed by the US and other Western nations, I can see why in desperation they would vote for a more extreme party. I have no problem with Israel defending itself by killing Hamas terrorists/militants, it's a horrible organisation. I do have a problem with Israelis stealing land and resources and effectively setting up an apartheid system. That's where international pressure on Israel needs to start, show the Palestinians that someone other than Hamas is on their side.

[thebish]

If Palestinians vote for a moderate government, and the Israelis trample all over it while backed by the US and other Western nations, I can see why in desperation they would vote for a more extreme party. I have no problem with Israel defending itself by killing Hamas terrorists/militants, it's a horrible organisation. I do have a problem with Israelis stealing land and resources and effectively setting up an apartheid system. That's where international pressure on Israel needs to start, show the Palestinians that someone other than Hamas is on their side.

^ i agree with every word of this. well put.

[William the White]

If Palestinians vote for a moderate government, and the Israelis trample all over it while backed by the US and other Western nations, I can see why in desperation they would vote for a more extreme party. I have no problem with Israel defending itself by killing Hamas terrorists/militants, it's a horrible organisation. I do have a problem with Israelis stealing land and resources and effectively setting up an apartheid system. That's where international pressure on Israel needs to start, show the Palestinians that someone other than Hamas is on their side.

Another form of international intervention is exemplified by the volunteers of the International Solidarity Movement, who go to live in Palestine, staying in the houses of Palestinians, as witnesses to events, and, also, in the knowledge that it makes it more difficult for the Israelis to commit atrocities when there are non-Palestinian witnesses.

The most famous of these was Rachel Corrie, crushed by a bulldozer as she stood outside a pharmacy about to be demolished.

http://palsolidarity.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To be clear - all volunteers have to commit to non-violence. I am amazed at their courage.

[LeverEnd]

If Palestinians vote for a moderate government, and the Israelis trample all over it while backed by the US and other Western nations, I can see why in desperation they would vote for a more extreme party. I have no problem with Israel defending itself by killing Hamas terrorists/militants, it's a horrible organisation. I do have a problem with Israelis stealing land and resources and effectively setting up an apartheid system. That's where international pressure on Israel needs to start, show the Palestinians that someone other than Hamas is on their side.

Another form of international intervention is exemplified by the volunteers of the International Solidarity Movement, who go to live in Palestine, staying in the houses of Palestinians, as witnesses to events, and, also, in the knowledge that it makes it more difficult for the Israelis to commit atrocities when there are non-Palestinian witnesses.

The most famous of these was Rachel Corrie, crushed by a bulldozer as she stood outside a pharmacy about to be demolished.

http://palsolidarity.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To be clear - all volunteers have to commit to non-violence. I am amazed at their courage.

I remember that and agree about their courage. Apparently they didn't see her or some such nonsense. Sickening.
I hope they can make a difference.

[thebish]

If Palestinians vote for a moderate government, and the Israelis trample all over it while backed by the US and other Western nations, I can see why in desperation they would vote for a more extreme party. I have no problem with Israel defending itself by killing Hamas terrorists/militants, it's a horrible organisation. I do have a problem with Israelis stealing land and resources and effectively setting up an apartheid system. That's where international pressure on Israel needs to start, show the Palestinians that someone other than Hamas is on their side.

Another form of international intervention is exemplified by the volunteers of the International Solidarity Movement, who go to live in Palestine, staying in the houses of Palestinians, as witnesses to events, and, also, in the knowledge that it makes it more difficult for the Israelis to commit atrocities when there are non-Palestinian witnesses.

The most famous of these was Rachel Corrie, crushed by a bulldozer as she stood outside a pharmacy about to be demolished.

http://palsolidarity.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To be clear - all volunteers have to commit to non-violence. I am amazed at their courage.

when she is killed i wrote a whole Good Friday meditative service based on the reading her emails home and interspersing them with the crucifixion story... the lass who read the emails choked and sobbed her way through the last couple...

a few years ago i was planning a sabbatical - 3 months - i planned to go as an accompanier into Gaza - entirely as you describe above. i sent off for the application forms and stuff...

the missus vetoed the idea - not because i might get killed - but because i'd be away for 3 months and she'd have to look after the kids all on her own!

[Hoboh]

If Palestinians vote for a moderate government, and the Israelis trample all over it while backed by the US and other Western nations, I can see why in desperation they would vote for a more extreme party. I have no problem with Israel defending itself by killing Hamas terrorists/militants, it's a horrible organisation. I do have a problem with Israelis stealing land and resources and effectively setting up an apartheid system. That's where international pressure on Israel needs to start, show the Palestinians that someone other than Hamas is on their side.

^ i agree with every word of this. well put.

So do I, unfortunately that is not the current situation, international pressure should have been applied years ago and Israel isolated if it failed to toe the line but too many others on the other side have prevented this.

[Hoboh]

If Palestinians vote for a moderate government, and the Israelis trample all over it while backed by the US and other Western nations, I can see why in desperation they would vote for a more extreme party. I have no problem with Israel defending itself by killing Hamas terrorists/militants, it's a horrible organisation. I do have a problem with Israelis stealing land and resources and effectively setting up an apartheid system. That's where international pressure on Israel needs to start, show the Palestinians that someone other than Hamas is on their side.

Another form of international intervention is exemplified by the volunteers of the International Solidarity Movement, who go to live in Palestine, staying in the houses of Palestinians, as witnesses to events, and, also, in the knowledge that it makes it more difficult for the Israelis to commit atrocities when there are non-Palestinian witnesses.

The most famous of these was Rachel Corrie, crushed by a bulldozer as she stood outside a pharmacy about to be demolished.

http://palsolidarity.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To be clear - all volunteers have to commit to non-violence. I am amazed at their courage.

when she is killed i wrote a whole Good Friday meditative service based on the reading her emails home and interspersing them with the crucifixion story... the lass who read the emails choked and sobbed her way through the last couple...

a few years ago i was planning a sabbatical - 3 months - i planned to go as an accompanier into Gaza - entirely as you describe above. i sent off for the application forms and stuff...
the missus vetoed the idea - not because i might get killed - but because i'd be away for 3 months and she'd have to look after the kids all on her own!

I'm glad you never made it, sacrifice is for pagans.

[William the White]

If Palestinians vote for a moderate government, and the Israelis trample all over it while backed by the US and other Western nations, I can see why in desperation they would vote for a more extreme party. I have no problem with Israel defending itself by killing Hamas terrorists/militants, it's a horrible organisation. I do have a problem with Israelis stealing land and resources and effectively setting up an apartheid system. That's where international pressure on Israel needs to start, show the Palestinians that someone other than Hamas is on their side.

Another form of international intervention is exemplified by the volunteers of the International Solidarity Movement, who go to live in Palestine, staying in the houses of Palestinians, as witnesses to events, and, also, in the knowledge that it makes it more difficult for the Israelis to commit atrocities when there are non-Palestinian witnesses.

The most famous of these was Rachel Corrie, crushed by a bulldozer as she stood outside a pharmacy about to be demolished.

http://palsolidarity.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To be clear - all volunteers have to commit to non-violence. I am amazed at their courage.

when she is killed i wrote a whole Good Friday meditative service based on the reading her emails home and interspersing them with the crucifixion story... the lass who read the emails choked and sobbed her way through the last couple...

a few years ago i was planning a sabbatical - 3 months - i planned to go as an accompanier into Gaza - entirely as you describe above. i sent off for the application forms and stuff...
the missus vetoed the idea - not because i might get killed - but because i'd be away for 3 months and she'd have to look after the kids all on her own!

I'm glad you never made it, sacrifice is for pagans.

Just to say this is the ninth posting in the 24 hours since you said you were keeping out of this one...

You really should try to control the compulsive lying...

Or, to try another tack, you could try talking sense...

I'm not optimistic...

[William the White]

If Palestinians vote for a moderate government, and the Israelis trample all over it while backed by the US and other Western nations, I can see why in desperation they would vote for a more extreme party. I have no problem with Israel defending itself by killing Hamas terrorists/militants, it's a horrible organisation. I do have a problem with Israelis stealing land and resources and effectively setting up an apartheid system. That's where international pressure on Israel needs to start, show the Palestinians that someone other than Hamas is on their side.

Another form of international intervention is exemplified by the volunteers of the International Solidarity Movement, who go to live in Palestine, staying in the houses of Palestinians, as witnesses to events, and, also, in the knowledge that it makes it more difficult for the Israelis to commit atrocities when there are non-Palestinian witnesses.

The most famous of these was Rachel Corrie, crushed by a bulldozer as she stood outside a pharmacy about to be demolished.

http://palsolidarity.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To be clear - all volunteers have to commit to non-violence. I am amazed at their courage.

when she is killed i wrote a whole Good Friday meditative service based on the reading her emails home and interspersing them with the crucifixion story... the lass who read the emails choked and sobbed her way through the last couple...

a few years ago i was planning a sabbatical - 3 months - i planned to go as an accompanier into Gaza - entirely as you describe above. i sent off for the application forms and stuff...

the missus vetoed the idea - not because i might get killed - but because i'd be away for 3 months and she'd have to look after the kids all on her own!

Do you still have a copy of that service, thebish? I would like to read it. I'll PM you my email if you do.