Middle East Crisis

[EverSoYouri]

This is a difficult call, and we've all been appalled by the attitudes and callous executions of IS. Will UK involvement in bombing help improve matters (as opposed to blowing on the embers of our "special" relationship with the USA)?

We have a long and not very proud connection with the Middle East and our current relationship includes supporting an oppressive Israeli regime and brutal dictatorships in many of the Gulf states (see the Owen Jones article below):

http://www.4thmedia.org/2014/09/the-gua ... di-arabia/

Looking at the parliamentary vote, I respect Caroline Lucas (who voted against) and Rory Stewart (who voted for).

One of the factors which makes me think we should have held our fire is the remarkable comment from a Tory grandee and former ambassador to Iraq who, when asked if bombing wouldn't also cause heavy casualties among the local civilian populations of the areas now controlled by IS replied: 'Well, it sounds strange but the people in those areas are used to it by now'. Strikes me that such a comment could have been made in 1914 not 2014.

We should intercede when we have a reasonable idea where, when and how we might be able to make the situation better. I don't think we're there, yet.

[Worthy4England]

It's sort of an easy target to say that interventions haven't help. I would contend that maybe they haven't hindered much either. In Syria, there have been between 100,000 and 200,000 deaths without anyone's help. In Iraq, the numbers vary wildly, but clearly Hussein slaughtered 100's of 1000's - people estimate generally betweek 250,000 & 500,000. Iraq Body Count suggests there've been 200,000 since 2003 - A recent study from the US based on a sample of 2000 families suggest it's much higher.

https://www.iraqbodycount.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24547256" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think it's always difficult (as has been demonstrated by the debate on here) to come to a reasoned judgement.

Some will always advocate intervention as being no worse than what's going on and keeps us in a wider sense "safer"
Some will always advocate us getting involved is wrong, and if we don't involve ourselves, it'll sort itself out, we won't get blood on our hands, which will keep us in a wider sense "safer".

I think we've actually gone waaaaayyyyy past the second alternative keeping us safer.

When Kuwait asked for our support, maybe we should have said no, but realistically would the problem then have gone away - I'm not sure it would have.

[Hoboh]

Yet another poor bloke helping folk killed by savages, find them, carpet bomb them with B-52'S then send in the troops.
No rules, no mercy, no prisoners.
It seems there are few 'innocents' in the middle east, just this set of bad guys is currently worse than the others!
One day when oil is not needed I hope they burn in hell.

[a1]

I see that a1's edited his post, twice, just in case anyone understood what the feck he's on about.

sorry i didnt see this -

i spelt 1992 with a I , and put a full stop in somewhere.

these sarky letters , who the feck has time to think em up , and why do they think theyve invented something new ? and do they get £50 or whatever from the paper ? he robbed them if they do.

he'll be telling them about a chicken that crosses a road in 6 months time.

and its a good job all these amateur satirists arent soldiers, that hitler fella wouldve took over the world in 10 minutes

is that satire ?

and i thought the cicular logic thing of "how do you kill someone who doesnt care if they die?" was answered in WW2 with terrible burn-y consequences.

-----

whatever theyre doing bombing isil from the sky's pissing them off, they're begging for a ground invasion.

i'd make my planes fly higher up and tell them (these isil pricks) "Dear Jihady John , i'm flying my planes higher up now" in a video on youtube and i'd do it with a ski mask on even though i'm Prime Minister/President Of The United States and it's obvious who i am.

[Hoboh]

I see that a1's edited his post, twice, just in case anyone understood what the feck he's on about.

sorry i didnt see this -

i spelt 1992 with a I , and put a full stop in somewhere.

these sarky letters , who the feck has time to think em up , and why do they think theyve invented something new ? and do they get £50 or whatever from the paper ? he robbed them if they do.

he'll be telling them about a chicken that crosses a road in 6 months time.

and its a good job all these amateur satirists arent soldiers, that hitler fella wouldve took over the world in 10 minutes

is that satire ?

and i thought the cicular logic thing of "how do you kill someone who doesnt care if they die?" was answered in WW2 with terrible burn-y consequences.

-----

whatever theyre doing bombing isil from the sky's pissing them off, they're begging for a ground invasion.

i'd make my planes fly higher up and tell them (these isil pricks) "Dear Jihady John , i'm flying my planes higher up now" in a video on youtube and i'd do it with a ski mask on even though i'm Prime Minister/President Of The United States and it's obvious who i am.

I'd send in A10'S and Apaches as well as the pyscholodgical effect of the B-52's that would make the fcukers think

[Hoboh]

If Kobani. falls the West should hang it's collective heads in shame, it will be judgement day on the Wests so called humanitarian values.

As Islamic State militants closed in on the besieged Syrian city of Kobani on Saturday, Turkey lined up its soldiers near the border but continued to refuse to intervene to repel the extremist advance.

On a day that should have been one of the happiest in the Muslim calendar, the festival of Eid al-Adha, hundreds of Turks and refugee Kurds spent the morning at the border with Syria, watching helplessly as shells rained down on a city many once called home.

Turkish police appeared uneasy at the size of the crowd gathered near a fragile border fence and fired teargas grenades to disperse them, adding the crack of smaller explosions to the rumbling of the Isis advance.

When the crowd formed again, armoured personnel carriers and water cannon arrived, and riot police set to again. It was a mournfully surreal scene, with the battle for Kobani as the backdrop for the standoff with police.

And some fcuking idiots want Turkey to join the EU, spit!

Mostafa Kader was one of the restive crowd, grieving for an uncle who had been beheaded by militants, and a young mother and her daughter both brutally raped and murdered.

Kader fled 10 days ago, leaving his village, which lies 16km from Kobani centre, in the small hours of the morning. He and his wife took their five-year-old, their toddler and what little else they could carry.

His uncle planned to join them but at the last minute changed his mind, unable to leave a village that had been his home for more than eight decades. The militants beheaded him, refugees arriving later told Kader.

"He was 85 – he could not even lift a weapon," said the young father, baffled by the brutality. Even more haunting were stories from his wife's village, where the fleeing family found the bodies of her sister and an eight-year-old niece lying in pools of blood.

"They had been raped, and their hearts were cut out of their chests and left on top of the bodies," he said, struggling to hold back tears. "I buried them with my own hands."

I truly, truly despair at this.
To hell with a vote in Parliament Camoron, do the right fcuking thing if its not already too late, send in all available Tornado's and blast the bastards back to the middle ages.

[Hoboh]

Secretary of State John Kerry said Wednesday that preventing the town’s fall to Islamic State militants was not a strategic objective for the United States.
“As horrific as it is to watch in real time what is happening in Kobani,” Mr. Kerry said at a news conference with the British foreign secretary in Washington, “you have to step back and understand the strategic objective.” He added that the focus had been on the militants’ “command and control centers, the infrastructure.”

So now along with the Turkish shits and cowards the US don't give two hoots about the Kurds or their town.

The Turkish shits have the biggest standing army in that part of the world, hate Assad, yet want us to do their dirty work for them by removing him. Not only this they want a 20 mile 'buffer' zone, to protect Turkey? No so they can control whatever remains of the Kurds

I hope the Turkish shits get many,many years of insurrection and strife.

BTW nice display of vintage tanks Turkey shits, big conscript army, worried most won't fight like the Iraqi's?

[Worthy4England]

Secretary of State John Kerry said Wednesday that preventing the town’s fall to Islamic State militants was not a strategic objective for the United States.
“As horrific as it is to watch in real time what is happening in Kobani,” Mr. Kerry said at a news conference with the British foreign secretary in Washington, “you have to step back and understand the strategic objective.” He added that the focus had been on the militants’ “command and control centers, the infrastructure.”

So now along with the Turkish shits and cowards the US don't give two hoots about the Kurds or their town.

The Turkish shits have the biggest standing army in that part of the world, hate Assad, yet want us to do their dirty work for them by removing him. Not only this they want a 20 mile 'buffer' zone, to protect Turkey? No so they can control whatever remains of the Kurds

I hope the Turkish shits get many,many years of insurrection and strife.

BTW nice display of vintage tanks Turkey shits, big conscript army, worried most won't fight like the Iraqi's?

This is the same Hoboh that wanted to let Russia just walk into the independent nation of Ukraine, like a yellow bellied custard, isn't it?

Just because Putin wanted a cheeky buffer zone between him and the rest of Europe...

What a load of shits.

[Hoboh]

The Ukraine reaped just what it sowed, just like the Turks are doing.
Why if they are a regional superpower do they need and have asked for NATO support? Something I would object to strongly.
Turkey supports and backs ISIS, that alone should merit their isolation from the West, Vlad would like that

[boltonboris]

If Kobani. falls the West should hang it's collective heads in shame, it will be judgement day on the Wests so called humanitarian values.

As Islamic State militants closed in on the besieged Syrian city of Kobani on Saturday, Turkey lined up its soldiers near the border but continued to refuse to intervene to repel the extremist advance.

On a day that should have been one of the happiest in the Muslim calendar, the festival of Eid al-Adha, hundreds of Turks and refugee Kurds spent the morning at the border with Syria, watching helplessly as shells rained down on a city many once called home.

Turkish police appeared uneasy at the size of the crowd gathered near a fragile border fence and fired teargas grenades to disperse them, adding the crack of smaller explosions to the rumbling of the Isis advance.

When the crowd formed again, armoured personnel carriers and water cannon arrived, and riot police set to again. It was a mournfully surreal scene, with the battle for Kobani as the backdrop for the standoff with police.

And some fcuking idiots want Turkey to join the EU, spit!

Mostafa Kader was one of the restive crowd, grieving for an uncle who had been beheaded by militants, and a young mother and her daughter both brutally raped and murdered.

Kader fled 10 days ago, leaving his village, which lies 16km from Kobani centre, in the small hours of the morning. He and his wife took their five-year-old, their toddler and what little else they could carry.

His uncle planned to join them but at the last minute changed his mind, unable to leave a village that had been his home for more than eight decades. The militants beheaded him, refugees arriving later told Kader.

"He was 85 – he could not even lift a weapon," said the young father, baffled by the brutality. Even more haunting were stories from his wife's village, where the fleeing family found the bodies of her sister and an eight-year-old niece lying in pools of blood.

"They had been raped, and their hearts were cut out of their chests and left on top of the bodies," he said, struggling to hold back tears. "I buried them with my own hands."

I truly, truly despair at this.
To hell with a vote in Parliament Camoron, do the right fcuking thing if its not already too late, send in all available Tornado's and blast the bastards back to the middle ages.

Turkey have taken in 2 million refugees (they didn't have to) and now they're cowards for not wanting to stir up even more shit on their own doorsteps by going to a war that doesn't involve them? You're weird you

[Hoboh]

If Kobani. falls the West should hang it's collective heads in shame, it will be judgement day on the Wests so called humanitarian values.

As Islamic State militants closed in on the besieged Syrian city of Kobani on Saturday, Turkey lined up its soldiers near the border but continued to refuse to intervene to repel the extremist advance.

On a day that should have been one of the happiest in the Muslim calendar, the festival of Eid al-Adha, hundreds of Turks and refugee Kurds spent the morning at the border with Syria, watching helplessly as shells rained down on a city many once called home.

Turkish police appeared uneasy at the size of the crowd gathered near a fragile border fence and fired teargas grenades to disperse them, adding the crack of smaller explosions to the rumbling of the Isis advance.

When the crowd formed again, armoured personnel carriers and water cannon arrived, and riot police set to again. It was a mournfully surreal scene, with the battle for Kobani as the backdrop for the standoff with police.

And some fcuking idiots want Turkey to join the EU, spit!

Mostafa Kader was one of the restive crowd, grieving for an uncle who had been beheaded by militants, and a young mother and her daughter both brutally raped and murdered.

Kader fled 10 days ago, leaving his village, which lies 16km from Kobani centre, in the small hours of the morning. He and his wife took their five-year-old, their toddler and what little else they could carry.

His uncle planned to join them but at the last minute changed his mind, unable to leave a village that had been his home for more than eight decades. The militants beheaded him, refugees arriving later told Kader.

"He was 85 – he could not even lift a weapon," said the young father, baffled by the brutality. Even more haunting were stories from his wife's village, where the fleeing family found the bodies of her sister and an eight-year-old niece lying in pools of blood.

"They had been raped, and their hearts were cut out of their chests and left on top of the bodies," he said, struggling to hold back tears. "I buried them with my own hands."

I truly, truly despair at this.
To hell with a vote in Parliament Camoron, do the right fcuking thing if its not already too late, send in all available Tornado's and blast the bastards back to the middle ages.

Turkey have taken in 2 million refugees (they didn't have to) and now they're cowards for not wanting to stir up even more shit on their own doorsteps by going to a war that doesn't involve them? You're weird you

If Turkey had got 'involved' earlier instead of supporting ISIS they wouldn't have 2 million refugees.
Just how anyone can be a part of Nato, want a no fly zone when the only aircraft flying down there are US and allies and demand a buffer zone the Kurds would have given them defy's belief.
Add to that it's disgusting to stand by and watch people get slaughtered.

[malcd1]

You also have to remember that Turkey has been at conflict with the Kurds (actually the PKK) for years who they consider terrorists. They probably have little incentive to try and help people who have been fighting against the Turkish Armed Forces.

[Hoboh]

You also have to remember that Turkey has been at conflict with the Kurds (actually the PKK) for years who they consider terrorists. They probably have little incentive to try and help people who have been fighting against the Turkish Armed Forces.

I'd reckon it may have given them some leverage in the peace talks tbh, if McGuiness can meet the Queen?

[Hoboh]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/o ... self-a-jew" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This piece maybe of interest to a few on here, I found it so.

[William the White]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/o ... self-a-jew

This piece maybe of interest to a few on here, I found it so.

That is a brave and brilliant piece.

[a1]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/o ... self-a-jew

This piece maybe of interest to a few on here, I found it so.

"liberal white guilt for jews" could be a really bad olympic sport .

[Montreal Wanderer]

We now have our crazies attacking soldiers and politicians in Parliament as you are all aware. The RCMP has just released CCTV footage of the attack on Parliament now on the BBC website. I was impressed with the speed that the man in the street recognized the problem and fled expeditiously.

[Hoboh]

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/115 ... ia/?ref=mr" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Getting close to home now.

[Harry Genshaw]

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/115 ... ia/?ref=mr

Getting close to home now.

A mad, bearded, Bolton teacher. Anyone heard from Lever End?

[Beefheart]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/o ... self-a-jew

This piece maybe of interest to a few on here, I found it so.

"liberal white guilt for jews" could be a really bad olympic sport .

Reminds me of a Woody Allen line (which I thought was a Larry David line for Curb Your Enthusiasm but he obviously nicked it'

'You're a self hating Jew!'

'I may hate myself, but that that has nothing to do with the fact that I'm Jewish'