Today I'm angry about.....

[Lord Kangana]

Can I just lob a grenade into the argument please?

Morals aside, during the Olympics, supermarkets were offered the chance to open longer on sundays. the overwhelming majority declined. Simple argument, the consensus is that the market is already saturated, and opening longer would simply increase costs without increasing turnover. Its a classic business mistake, so they're not all idiots, apparently.

That would be a simple argument, if of course it was that simple. Quite a number of them have a mixed estate - retail space to which the Sunday trading laws apply and retail space to which it doesn't. Tesco's are reasonably happy that the cost of opening on a Sunday on their Superstore space would cost money and might not have a discernible increase in Revenue, but that the slack in terms of market share is offset by it's Tesco Express and smaller retail spaces - so it already opens on a Sunday. Other retailers don't have that type of estate, so a more in favour of opening on a Sunday. Either way none of them are considering closing on a Sunday - they've just approached the problem differently. Asda and Morrisons are in favour, because their real estate portfolio is different than Tesco's. So I don't believe there's a consensus view at all.

There is more to it than the Supermarkets - places like B&Q don't have "small" retail footprint - they're pretty much all large superstores.

As I say, they were offered the opportunity, and the majority declined. That represents a far more concrete consensus than any theory.

[Worthy4England]

Can I just lob a grenade into the argument please?

Morals aside, during the Olympics, supermarkets were offered the chance to open longer on sundays. the overwhelming majority declined. Simple argument, the consensus is that the market is already saturated, and opening longer would simply increase costs without increasing turnover. Its a classic business mistake, so they're not all idiots, apparently.

That would be a simple argument, if of course it was that simple. Quite a number of them have a mixed estate - retail space to which the Sunday trading laws apply and retail space to which it doesn't. Tesco's are reasonably happy that the cost of opening on a Sunday on their Superstore space would cost money and might not have a discernible increase in Revenue, but that the slack in terms of market share is offset by it's Tesco Express and smaller retail spaces - so it already opens on a Sunday. Other retailers don't have that type of estate, so a more in favour of opening on a Sunday. Either way none of them are considering closing on a Sunday - they've just approached the problem differently. Asda and Morrisons are in favour, because their real estate portfolio is different than Tesco's. So I don't believe there's a consensus view at all.

There is more to it than the Supermarkets - places like B&Q don't have "small" retail footprint - they're pretty much all large superstores.

As I say, they were offered the opportunity, and the majority declined. That represents a far more concrete consensus than any theory.

Where's that view coming from? That the majority declined? Would be interested to see that.

I'm not convinced that measuring during a special one-off occasion during the Olympics is any sort of guide - surely most foils would have been propped up in front of the telly, watching - well - the Olympics...

Good news is, giving them the opportunity to open later would be just that then - an opportunity which they could choose to take up based on customer demand - as the concrete consensus is that they wouldn't then there clearly wouldn't be a problem to the status quo, so there shouldn't be much risk to the "way of life" to put it on the statute books then.

[Hoboh]

Many people work such long hours mid-week that their only options are Saturday/Sunday.

i'm still not convinced that this is really true for enough people that we insist that supermarkets all have to open on sundays and their staff go into work...

Staff work because that is the contract they are offered, if you are not contracted you don't have to work it unless you want overtime.
So they are not 'slaves'.

yes - i understand that - but why should we insist that supermarkets have contracts that make their staff work on sundays - and not (say) lawyers or solicitors or bank staff or teachers or estate agents or any other kind of non-essential business that doesn't run on a sunday?

i simply don't believe that a truly significant number of people cannot organise their lives in such a way that supermarket shopping on a sunday is not necessary.

anyway hobes - I thought you were always on about immigrants eroding our culture and our British way of life - you don't seem to actually give a stuff!

Eh! What the heck has supermarket staff got to do with being swamped by immigrants? Legal or illegal.

[Hoboh]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... coins.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ARSEHOLES!

[Dujon]

Surely there are all sorts of occupations where the 9-to-5 mentality has no place and those in those jobs don't expect it to be. Similarly those who work through weekends as a matter of course. As a banker I must have interviewed thousands of people over the years, many of whom worked 'odd' hours. I think (memory's not as good as it was) that the only customers who had concerns about their hours were those working 'split' shifts - and I can't help but agree with that!

What I cannot understand is why some of those people were paid (entitled to) extra remuneration just because they were doing their job, a job no different to that which their colleagues working, say, Monday to Friday did. Why? because they couldn't have a knees up with the extended family over a Sunday dinner? Gerroff.

[Bruce Rioja]

I've sometimes wondered how our nightshift operatives go on at weekends regarding whether they try to alter their sleep patters or whether they stay up on Saturday and Sunday nights?

[bobo the clown]

Over the years I've moved many people onto and off various shift patterns. People who are cut out for night work love it. Some people can't adapt no matter what. We pay 30% or so for people who's shifts include weekends and nights and that's big money & I used to wonder why we paid so much, apart from habit, seeing how they enjoyed shifts so much.

I got the answer on two or three occasions when looking to move people off shifts. They consistently are willing to offer up their extra payments if it let them stay on their chosen shift pattern. Especially 'permanent' night workers. Usually to no avail as it's the work pattern not the pure cash that needs changing.

[Hoboh]

I've sometimes wondered how our nightshift operatives go on at weekends regarding whether they try to alter their sleep patters or whether they stay up on Saturday and Sunday nights?

Most of them have weird sleep patterns and it doesn't usually affect them that much, except it burns them up earlier.

[thebish]

I've sometimes wondered how our nightshift operatives go on at weekends regarding whether they try to alter their sleep patters or whether they stay up on Saturday and Sunday nights?

Most of them have weird sleep patterns and it doesn't usually affect them that much, except it burns them up earlier.

the other way around...

my eldest is diurnal monday - Friday (he has a 9-5 job) and nocturnal Friday - Sunday - friday being a kind of pivot day where he is up both day and night! he seems to cope well enough until we have family stuff on saturday or sunday that involves setting off somewhere in the morning!

[jimbo]

I absolutely hate working nights. I frequently have to flick between days and nights, with a typical 2 week pattern being - Monday to Thursday 8-5 ish, then Friday Saturday, Sunday as 13 hour nights shifts, then back to days for weds, thurs, friday. While I manage to make myself function at work, it generally leaves me completely lacking in energy. I'm currently on my Tuesday post weekend nights. I'm up and awake but feel pretty disorientated and lacking the eneergy to do the things I actually want to do on a day off. Stretch that kind of repeating pattern over a few months and it soon becomes pretty unhealthy.

That said, our pay goes up significantly for working out of hours shifts and we have to do it as part of our jobs. It's something i don't want to do long term, and a reason why I've picked the career path I have.

[jimbo]

Oh, and as someone who works long hours in the week with no option of just nipping out at lunch time to pick up a few bits and bobs, Sunday trading is a real hassle. Even things as simple as getting a haircut can be a huge task. Having supermarkets opneing later on a Sunday would be a bonus so I could go out and do something with my day without having to be back at half 3 just so I can feed myself for the next week.

[Worthy4England]

Oh, and as someone who works long hours in the week with no option of just nipping out at lunch time to pick up a few bits and bobs, Sunday trading is a real hassle. Even things as simple as getting a haircut can be a huge task. Having supermarkets opneing later on a Sunday would be a bonus so I could go out and do something with my day without having to be back at half 3 just so I can feed myself for the next week.

Indeed - the quaint notion of 9 to 5-ness is a wonderful thin.

My job is ostensibly 9-5 too - but great for people who only have to work 9-5 (that's not a complaint, I'm paid well for it). The last couple of years I've done around 3,200 - 3,500 hours per annum - which averages out at 9-10 hours per day every day, 365 days per year. It clearly doesn't work like that because I have time off - so those day off days tend to translate themselves into a number of 14/16/18 hour days elsewhere. Add to that (bit like Brucie) plenty of flights to Europe/US at odd hours, and this notion of "family day" on a Sunday becomes quite hysterical. Most of the teams I work with (my current team is 200+) are all doing the same sort of hours. That doesn't mean I'm suggesting this is the norm - because it probably isn't.

I'm fortunate in that the memsahib sorts out most of the shopping, and I don't actually like shopping so I'm pretty much "web-order" everything. Occasionally it would be good to be able to visit a shop to see something I'm intending to buy...

[Bijou Bob]

As a public sector worker, the notion of working anything more than 37.5 hours per week, flexi time, with 30 odd days holiday per year (Plus PH's) leaves me aghast! I've had several opportunities to climb the greasy pole and further my career and salary, but the pay off in terms of the additional time I'd have to put in just isn't worth it. Time with my family, dogs and friends is far more important to me.

A good friend of mine works 'In IT'. He is regularly to and from Europe and the States and used to commute to Helsinki. I always remember the time he came round to ours for a brew and his 2 year old little girl came running in asking for a horsey ride on my knee. He was gutted. She'd never asked him, but then he was away 6 days a week earning mega bucks, so she never saw him and had little idea how to interact with someone who was effectively a stranger. Taught me a lesson that did. What's that phrase? No one ever gets to their deathbed and says "I wish I'd spent more time at work". Bob on that.

[Worthy4England]

I started out as a yoof in the Public Sector. left when I was 29 as I didn't see me earning any significant money any time before I was a hundred, I don't regret it on that front one iota. Public Sector wasn't a job, it was a party. I got paid-time off to play football/cricket etc. etc. "representing the Department"

I like the job I do, but certainly don't have as much time for the family/kids as my old man did. They know who I am, but I am away from home midweek fairly often - Monday to Thursday. Maybe when I retire in a couple of years, I'll invite you across to my island.

(I bloody wish)

[jimbo]

As a public sector worker, the notion of working anything more than 37.5 hours per week, flexi time, with 30 odd days holiday per year (Plus PH's) leaves me aghast! I've had several opportunities to climb the greasy pole and further my career and salary, but the pay off in terms of the additional time I'd have to put in just isn't worth it. Time with my family, dogs and friends is far more important to me.

A good friend of mine works 'In IT'. He is regularly to and from Europe and the States and used to commute to Helsinki. I always remember the time he came round to ours for a brew and his 2 year old little girl came running in asking for a horsey ride on my knee. He was gutted. She'd never asked him, but then he was away 6 days a week earning mega bucks, so she never saw him and had little idea how to interact with someone who was effectively a stranger. Taught me a lesson that did. What's that phrase? No one ever gets to their deathbed and says "I wish I'd spent more time at work". Bob on that.

Completely agree and I've picked an avenue to go down that will hopefully give me that. I know what I'm doing at the moment will only be for 5 years or so before I'm more free to go my own way. I'm just coming up to being halfway through that, so I can see the light!

[Beefheart]

I have some experience of public sector/ex public sector clients at work. I was amazed when I overhead a conversation where one person was admonishing a colleague for still working at about 5.08pm and demanding that they go home.

[Bijou Bob]

Some of my colleagues in hospitals work very silly hours. My ex boss was fond of sending emails at 5am on Sunday or ringing me at 10.30pm on Wednesday night. She only did that twice, the second time (7.15am on a Tuesday morning) she got told. The problem is that the hospital's senior management teams are under such massive financial and target driven pressure that they bully other staff into working daft hours. A friend of mine has spent nights in her car in the hospital car park recently because there has been an ongoing bed crisis. Utter madness, but great commitment to seeing patients get the best possible care.

I hope in 5 years Jimbo you are in a position where you can give up the money. So many of my friends and colleagues have planned the same route, only to find they couldn't take a step back because they were living to their means. Good luck with it mate, I hope it works for you.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

I wont regale my time working for the EU. Needless to say it involved little output

[Hoboh]

I wont regale my time working for the EU. Needless to say it involved little output

Say no more

[jimbo]

Some of my colleagues in hospitals work very silly hours. My ex boss was fond of sending emails at 5am on Sunday or ringing me at 10.30pm on Wednesday night. She only did that twice, the second time (7.15am on a Tuesday morning) she got told. The problem is that the hospital's senior management teams are under such massive financial and target driven pressure that they bully other staff into working daft hours. A friend of mine has spent nights in her car in the hospital car park recently because there has been an ongoing bed crisis. Utter madness, but great commitment to seeing patients get the best possible care.

I hope in 5 years Jimbo you are in a position where you can give up the money. So many of my friends and colleagues have planned the same route, only to find they couldn't take a step back because they were living to their means. Good luck with it mate, I hope it works for you.

How do you think it is for the frontline workers?! NHS managers not particularly my best friends haha. I'll be off to primary care in a couple of years so will be more flexible, and also saying goodbye to many of the weekends and night shifts. I won't miss them one bit