Middle East Crisis

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I've promised entire disparate constituencies that I'd stay out of this shit, but God's provocation keeps leading me into temptation - the non-existent tw*t eh? Just to say RIP Abdul-Rahman, or is that I'm hoping you're flitting about as a green bird mate?
I'm a bit confused... actually I'm not, your pathetic belief that changed your allegience from one made up diety called Jehovah to another called Allah would save your life is one of the most pathetic sick inducing gestures I've yet to come across in this entire pathetic display of why mankind hasn't left the kindergarten.
Just fecking grow up. God does Not exist and stop slaughtering people you Morons.

OUTRAGED.

[Prufrock]

Does anyone know why his family kept calling him Abdul-Rahman? The little I've seen of this makes it sound like he converted after being caught, and so while he was alive it made sense for his family to use that name I suppose. Not quite sure why they still are?

The day humans stop killing each other on behalf of their imaginary friend will be a good day.

[Montreal Wanderer]

Does anyone know why his family kept calling him Abdul-Rahman? The little I've seen of this makes it sound like he converted after being caught, and so while he was alive it made sense for his family to use that name I suppose. Not quite sure why they still are?

The day humans stop killing each other on behalf of their imaginary friend will be a good day.

I don't think it is clear when he converted and I don't think it is relevant. It strikes me that he was a good person trying to good things, whichever imaginary friend he believed in. He was captured by evil bastards who are mass murderers. Even if he converted to save his life, can he be criticized? I'd do it in an instant. Yet the IS is not motivated by belief in Allah since most of the people they kill have the same belief. They are motivated by oil and the desire for power.

[Prufrock]

No of course not! I'd do it in an instant too. And I completely understand why, whilst still a captive, his family would call him by that name too as they would be hoping not to piss ISIS off and hope he could be recovered. If that was why he converted though, it doesn't make sense to keep calling him by that name now. It may well be he'd converted earlier, I've just not seen anything on it and am wondering is all. No criticisms.

However, your final point is nonsense! Of course people can have several sources of motivation, but the idea that ISIS aren't at all motivated by Allah is ridiculous. If somebody blows themself up and says it's for Chechnyan independence, no-one questions it. Someone joins a group called the Islamic state, whose stated aim is to establish a caliphate, and cuts someone's head off in the name of Allah and suddenly we have to second guess their motives. No, no *really* it was about the oil. What oil did the Yazidis have? And the capability of humans to kill other humans on behalf of their imaginary friend is much more inventive that simply killing people with a different imaginary friend. No, you can kill someone who believes in the same imaginary friend, but in a different way, or even someone who believes in the same one in the same way but not up to your standards.

At the same time, on the same earth, secular societies put a probe on a comet 40 BILLION miles away, and we can have a debate on whether or not that's scientific brilliance, or a waste of money. Religion poisons everything.

[TANGODANCER]

Religion poisons everything.

Okay Pru, I'll take the bait on that one, albeit unwillingly as it will solve nothing anyway:

Being fully aware that you love scoffing loudly at all forms of religion and "imaginary friends", and that you claim to possess a fair degree of intelligence, how can you claim something that almost universally promotes peace and love of the fellow man, poisons everything? Why not admit that power-hungry people, regardless of their beliefs, are totally responsible? A Bible, Koran, Torah or any other text, never pulled triggers, pushed buttons or sliced somebody's head off, that's left to those seeking power, wealth or dominance who use their forms of God to motivate the mindless. Behind every single war that purported to be God inspired is a controlling faction who pull all the strings and send millions to their deaths. I don't excuse the church and state including our own who were responsible for sending multi-thousands of uneducated peasants, armed with pitchforks, out to die by claiming "God wills it" despite the fact that "Thou shalt not kill" is a core belief in most religions. What was the motivation if it wasn't wealth and power? Is the IS a world peace promoting entity or a lunatic element who are prepared to wipe out half the globe to prove their dominance? God sanctioned that did he?

Religion, in its concept, its pure form, is the one thing that forever seeks world peace. Greedy, mindless men in positions of power manipulate it, and its devotees into realising their own aims by using it as a power tool and preaching lies and hate, the very things religion decries. Historically, what could a skint King, desperate to keep an army he couldn't afford or lose his throne and power base, do? Manipulate the church into backing him by claiming his enemies were decrying God and sent the army into pointless battles knowing half of them would die in pursuit of gold-paved streets that existed only in the minds of the mindless. History backs the claim many times.

Religion is a choice anybody has. It's rewards are all of the celestial variety not the earthly. " What doth it profit a man if he gains the whole world?" etc. Manipulating people by claiming it as God's will it is the work of charlatans, not the will of the people. Forcing people to convert to another belief on threat of having their heads cut off is religion? No, it isn't, it's lunacy and nothing to do with any man's God or his religion.

Amen.

[Worthy4England]

Clearly there would be no reasons to fight without religion. War would drop by at least 80%. These folks would just down arms and hug their brothers without religion.

[bobo the clown]

Yeah. Those fckg religious zealots Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot all showed that. Putin's persistent God-Bothering is getting worrying too.

.... & that First World War, the constant bickering about Transubstantiation was the cause of that you know. It's too often overlooked I feel.

[William the White]

I don't believe that religions 'cause' war - but, historically, they offer a powerful ideological motivation for them, and, in the case of ISIS, this is entirely evident. The entire ideological discourse is couched in religious terms and the state desired is one without physical boundaries, a Caliphate of the faithful. The borders of this 'state' are less physical than idoelogical - the borders are 'belief', 'faith' the 'will of the lord'.

Even so religions aren't the only ideology that can lead to massacre and tyranny - as the murderous 20th century shows, numerous barbarities and the deaths of millions have been caused by secular zealots. And certainly the nightmare that was Stalin's Soviet Union had much in common with the nightmare of the Catholic Inquisition - one permitted faith, savage punishment for all who deviate or oppose it, up to and including death.

[bobo the clown]

I don't believe that religions 'cause' war - but, historically, they offer a powerful ideological motivation for them, and, in the case of ISIS, this is entirely evident. The entire ideological discourse is couched in religious terms and the state desired is one without physical boundaries, a Caliphate of the faithful. The borders of this 'state' are less physical than idoelogical - the borders are 'belief', 'faith' the 'will of the lord'.

Even so religions aren't the only ideology that can lead to massacre and tyranny - as the murderous 20th century shows, numerous barbarities and the deaths of millions have been caused by secular zealots. And certainly the nightmare that was Stalin's Soviet Union had much in common with the nightmare of the Catholic Inquisition - one permitted faith, savage punishment for all who deviate or oppose it, up to and including death.

^^^ That's what I said !!

[Worthy4England]

I don't believe that religions 'cause' war - but, historically, they offer a powerful ideological motivation for them, and, in the case of ISIS, this is entirely evident. The entire ideological discourse is couched in religious terms and the state desired is one without physical boundaries, a Caliphate of the faithful. The borders of this 'state' are less physical than idoelogical - the borders are 'belief', 'faith' the 'will of the lord'.

Even so religions aren't the only ideology that can lead to massacre and tyranny - as the murderous 20th century shows, numerous barbarities and the deaths of millions have been caused by secular zealots. And certainly the nightmare that was Stalin's Soviet Union had much in common with the nightmare of the Catholic Inquisition - one permitted faith, savage punishment for all who deviate or oppose it, up to and including death.

^^^ That's what I said !!

Yeah.

The notion that people who want to fight, wouldn't find another compelling ideological reason, is complete bollocks to me. I could have gone for erudition, but succinct captures it too. There are plenty of alternative masts to hang your colours to, should the need arise.

[Montreal Wanderer]

No of course not! I'd do it in an instant too. And I completely understand why, whilst still a captive, his family would call him by that name too as they would be hoping not to piss ISIS off and hope he could be recovered. If that was why he converted though, it doesn't make sense to keep calling him by that name now. It may well be he'd converted earlier, I've just not seen anything on it and am wondering is all. No criticisms.

However, your final point is nonsense! Of course people can have several sources of motivation, but the idea that ISIS aren't at all motivated by Allah is ridiculous. If somebody blows themself up and says it's for Chechnyan independence, no-one questions it. Someone joins a group called the Islamic state, whose stated aim is to establish a caliphate, and cuts someone's head off in the name of Allah and suddenly we have to second guess their motives. No, no *really* it was about the oil. What oil did the Yazidis have? And the capability of humans to kill other humans on behalf of their imaginary friend is much more inventive that simply killing people with a different imaginary friend. No, you can kill someone who believes in the same imaginary friend, but in a different way, or even someone who believes in the same one in the same way but not up to your standards.

At the same time, on the same earth, secular societies put a probe on a comet 40 BILLION miles away, and we can have a debate on whether or not that's scientific brilliance, or a waste of money. Religion poisons everything.

On the subject of oil the Islamic State sells (steals, smuggles) five million dollars of oil per day. An aim of wanting to (re)establish the Caliphate is about establishing political power for the leadership. Certainly they use suicide bombers but you won't catch the leadership blowing themselves up. Frankly it is very hard to separate religious motivation from political/economic ones but if you analyze some great religious movement you often find non-religious motives at the base. Religion may be a rallying cry or recruitment tool, but those at the top seems to me just as cynical as the leaders of non-theocracies. Religion is just a tool they use, while secular states use others.

[William the White]

I don't believe that religions 'cause' war - but, historically, they offer a powerful ideological motivation for them, and, in the case of ISIS, this is entirely evident. The entire ideological discourse is couched in religious terms and the state desired is one without physical boundaries, a Caliphate of the faithful. The borders of this 'state' are less physical than idoelogical - the borders are 'belief', 'faith' the 'will of the lord'.

Even so religions aren't the only ideology that can lead to massacre and tyranny - as the murderous 20th century shows, numerous barbarities and the deaths of millions have been caused by secular zealots. And certainly the nightmare that was Stalin's Soviet Union had much in common with the nightmare of the Catholic Inquisition - one permitted faith, savage punishment for all who deviate or oppose it, up to and including death.

^^^ That's what I said !!

Don't get too anxious about it. You re allowed one sensible post a year!

[bobo the clown]

Bllx.

I was hoping for the full half-hour !!

[Hoboh]

The world and it's peoples are generally so corrupt the true beliefs behind religion will never come to the fore.
Extermination for the likes of ISIS is the only way forwards, you can chuck the humanity malarkey in the bin if you want your descendants to have any chance of peace, turn the other cheek in these times it will get blown off and make not a bit of difference.

[TANGODANCER]

The world and it's peoples are generally so corrupt the true beliefs behind religion will never come to the fore.
Extermination for the likes of ISIS is the only way forwards, you can chuck the humanity malarkey in the bin if you want your descendants to have any chance of peace, turn the other cheek in these times it will get blown off and make not a bit of difference.

Thing is Hoboh, the west, in general, got over any religious difficulties a long time ago and learned to live and let live. The east, however, is a whole different ball game. There views are dispensed by the few controlling the many, not as beliefs, but under the guise of divine law. Comply or die seem to be the choices available for many on the far banks of the Bosphorous.

[Hoboh]

The world and it's peoples are generally so corrupt the true beliefs behind religion will never come to the fore.
Extermination for the likes of ISIS is the only way forwards, you can chuck the humanity malarkey in the bin if you want your descendants to have any chance of peace, turn the other cheek in these times it will get blown off and make not a bit of difference.

Thing is Hoboh, the west, in general, got over any religious difficulties a long time ago and learned to live and let live. The east, however, is a whole different ball game. There views are dispensed by the few controlling the many, not as beliefs, but under the guise of divine law. Comply or die seem to be the choices available for many on the far banks of the Bosphorous.

I was actually quite moved by your earlier post and wish the world was like that but it ain't, in the West we have power hungry Governments, individuals and faceless non sentimental corporations who don't give two hoots for people and in a way carry on like ISIS without the executions and mass murders.
There is good within people but it is limited, one thing to chuck a few bob at a problem to ease ones conscience, a few go even further but it never cures anything. The 'dirty bit', the removal of the problem is one step to far for most.

[Lord Kangana]

Yeah. Those fckg religious zealots Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot all showed that. Putin's persistent God-Bothering is getting worrying too.

.... & that First World War, the constant bickering about Transubstantiation was the cause of that you know. It's too often overlooked I feel.

I'd be careful here. Its pretty well established historically that Europe's major dictators (Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, Franco) with blood on their hands had orthodox/and/or conservative religious upbringings. Northern Irish conflict, and conflict in the Middle east are absolutely because of religion and religious meddling.

[bobo the clown]

I avoided Hitler, Franco & Mussolini for those reasons.

That said Mussolini went to a Salesian school, as per Thornleigh, and was expelled for ... amongst other things ... pissing in the baptism font, eating the host wafers, drinking the communion wine and hanging crucifixes upside down.

So I don't think we should class him as a religious zealot. Not really.

[a1]

I'd be careful here. Its pretty well established historically that Europe's major dictators (Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, Franco) with blood on their hands had orthodox/and/or conservative religious upbringings

nah, that sounds like a richard dawkins excuse.

*cough*

[thebish]

Yeah. Those fckg religious zealots Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot all showed that. Putin's persistent God-Bothering is getting worrying too.

.... & that First World War, the constant bickering about Transubstantiation was the cause of that you know. It's too often overlooked I feel.

I'd be careful here. Its pretty well established historically that Europe's major dictators (Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, Franco) with blood on their hands had orthodox/and/or conservative religious upbringings. Northern Irish conflict, and conflict in the Middle east are absolutely because of religion and religious meddling.

it's fairly well established that they were all men as well.... gosh!! a link!!