Today I'm angry about.....

[Montreal Wanderer]

however - what makes it even more odd (in my opinion) is that the Bible fairly expressly counsels AGAINST swearing oaths in any form at all... (Matt. 5:34-37)

Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’.

All true, but swearing an oath, as I said, tied in with the Perjury ruling means that refusing to to do so is classed as Contempt of Court. You can be fined consistently until you comply, or even go to prison.

Interesting. Is there a humanist oath (or whatever) for non-believers, do we know?

The last lines of the article noted that those without faith can affirm.

[malcd1]

I think Malc's referring to this, Tango.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liv ... im-8730891" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I was so angry I forgot to paste the link

Thank you Bruce!

[thebish]

however - what makes it even more odd (in my opinion) is that the Bible fairly expressly counsels AGAINST swearing oaths in any form at all... (Matt. 5:34-37)

Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’.

All true, but swearing an oath, as I said, tied in with the Perjury ruling means that refusing to to do so is classed as Contempt of Court. You can be fined consistently until you comply, or even go to prison.

none of which impacts the point I was trying to make... (I was responding to malcd1)

namely, that it is ODD to have swearing an oath on the BIBLE as an option when the BIBLE you are being asked to swear that oath on expressly discourages the swearing such oaths!

swearing an oath ON something suggests that the something (in this case, the bible) is something you treasure highly. If you treasure the bible highly - then you might be wedded to what it actually says - namely - don't swear oaths on anything!

[TANGODANCER]

^ I was agreeing with you!.

[Harry Genshaw]

When I was on jury duty many years ago my insistence on affirming rather than swearing on the bible seemed to be putting the staff out. One of the other members asked me what it was all about, so when I told him, he said he didn't believe in God either, he just thought it was easier just to go along. Perhaps the couple of people we convicted could argue for a retrial?

[TANGODANCER]

I can't see swearing an oath or affirming to the truth is any different. All it is is a declaration that you're telling the truth and risking perjury if you're found to be lying. If either one's acceptable, then everybody's happy.

[Harry Genshaw]

I can't see swearing an oath or affirming to the truth is any different. All it is is a declaration that you're telling the truth and risking perjury if you're found to be lying. If either one's acceptable, then everybody's happy.

But if you swear by an almighty god you don't believe in, aren't you lying before the trial even starts?!

[Montreal Wanderer]

I can't see swearing an oath or affirming to the truth is any different. All it is is a declaration that you're telling the truth and risking perjury if you're found to be lying. If either one's acceptable, then everybody's happy.

But if you swear by an almighty god you don't believe in, aren't you lying before the trial even starts?!

No.

[Harry Genshaw]

I can't see swearing an oath or affirming to the truth is any different. All it is is a declaration that you're telling the truth and risking perjury if you're found to be lying. If either one's acceptable, then everybody's happy.

But if you swear by an almighty god you don't believe in, aren't you lying before the trial even starts?!

No.

Oh

[Lord Kangana]

When I was sworn in, I was asked if I wished not to use the bible.

Does this help the discussion along at all?

[TANGODANCER]

When I was sworn in, I was asked if I wished not to use the bible.

Does this help the discussion along at all?

Decidedly. Can you remember what they had you say?

[Prufrock]

You just take an affirmation instead of an oath. Not on a book. It's not uncommon.

Problem here, apparently, is that he dead proper promised to tell the truth, but was touching the wrong book at the time, so it does seem right that in a sane society we discharge a jury and restart a whole trial.

Fuss over nothing!

[TANGODANCER]

^

In that sane society, and to save a lot of time and expense, why not just explain to the jury an error had occurred ,get the guy to swear on the right book and proceed?

[thebish]

Is there any evidence that swearing an oath to tell the truth makes someone more likely to tell the truth? I suspect not. I really don't see why we can't simply remind people that they are in court and that if they are caught not telling the truth they will be in trouble - and asking them to affirm that they understand that. No need whatsoever for bibles or qu'rans or any other paraphernalia - all irrelevant nonsense.

[malcd1]

Is there any evidence that swearing an oath to tell the truth makes someone more likely to tell the truth? I suspect not. I really don't see why we can't simply remind people that they are in court and that if they are caught not telling the truth they will be in trouble - and asking them to affirm that they understand that. No need whatsoever for bibles or qu'rans or any other paraphernalia - all irrelevant nonsense.

You have summed up what I was trying to say much more eloquently than I could. To stop a trial because the gentleman swore an oath on the wrong book is ridiculous. According to the link below, the first records date from the ninth century but it wasn't adopted by the English courts until the thirteenth century. I personally think it has gone on far too long.

A 2013 proposal to end bible oaths was defeated by opponents including church leaders who "believe it strengthens the value of witnesses' evidence". I certainly wouldn't believe someone more because they had sworn on the bible that they were telling the truth. As you say Bish, all irrelevant nonsense.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24588854" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How about swearing an oath on a Kindle or Bible app?

http://www.newyorker.com/books/page-tur ... -and-books" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Hoboh]

Frankly, how about we get rid of amateur jury's?
I've been on three and on everyone there's always been the fcukwit know it all who holds things up until someone drills it in their bonce it's all about the evidence not what you fcuking think!

[Dujon]

Thanks, thebish. I have kept out of this debate as I thought the ruling in the case in question was just plain wrong and also that it's your legal system not mine.

As far as professional jurists go, Hoboh, I'm ambivalent. There are pros and cons on both sides of a discussion on the subject. Anyway it's not a suitable focus for the 'angry' thread.

[TANGODANCER]

There are scrotes who turn up in court wearing a suit they wouldn't normally be seen dead in.
Swearing to tell the truth is like the suit, a one-off for convenience and to fool the jury. I should imagine neither ever fools anybody.

[Prufrock]

It's all messed up. A throw-back no-one's sorted. 14-17 year-old's don't take an oath, they "promise to tell the truth". Then you turn 18 and suddenly you're now capable/supposed to promise to a deity instead?!

[Prufrock]

Anyway, today I'm angry about something far more important.

One of those PPI hawks advertising on TV about "PPI possibly mis-sold to you or I".

I?! Wankers. Another reason you're going to hell.