The Politics Thread

[Prufrock]

On the other hand, we could have had 5 more years of Labour and been able to draw £60 a day from cash machines for the past year, unemployment oozing over the 3 million mark, uncontrolled immigration, the continual growth of a benefit culture and a further growth in child poverty. The last 5 years has been no picnic, but it could have been far, far worse.

That'll be due to that global financial crash caused by Labour overspending, right?

[thebish]

New Labour were too right-wing for me, but not everyone right-wing of me is a Tory. If you were a poor student, or you needed a job, or you got ill, or you needed legal assistance, things were better under New Labour than they have been for the last five years. If you don't think that's true, you're mad!

if you don't think that's true - you're mad?

ahh - the finest legal minds in Britain!!

I have worked alongside some of the poorest people in Britain through the Blair years and through the Tory years and through the previous Tory years... I'm not convinced they felt much of an uplift that makes much of a stuff of a difference through the Blair years... lots of people got rich - it wasn't them!

but then - I'm clearly mad!

I would always prefer a labour govt to a tory one - a lot of that is merely tribal - but I still believe the worst labour govt is better for the poor than the best tory govt..

but you won't convince me that Blair was anything other than marginally less shit for the poor than Major or Cameron...

but then - I'm mad!

[bobo the clown]

.... but you won't convince me that Blair was anything other than marginally less shit for the poor than Major or Cameron...

but then - I'm mad!

No. Just, at heart a Christian Marxist.

While Pru has already begun his slow, inevitable march to becoming a Tory by middle age.

[thebish]

.... but you won't convince me that Blair was anything other than marginally less shit for the poor than Major or Cameron...

but then - I'm mad!

No. Just, at heart a Christian Marxist.

While Pru has already begun his slow, inevitable march to becoming a Tory by middle age.

a well trodden route, Bobo - one that has some particularly huge and comic footprints on the way!

(this is the politics thread BTW!!)

[Bijou Bob]

On the other hand, we could have had 5 more years of Labour and been able to draw £60 a day from cash machines for the past year, unemployment oozing over the 3 million mark, uncontrolled immigration, the continual growth of a benefit culture and a further growth in child poverty. The last 5 years has been no picnic, but it could have been far, far worse.

That'll be due to that global financial crash caused by Labour overspending, right?

No, that'd be due to their sll round incomperence with the country's finances, selling off gold stocks with gold prices at an all time low, increasing our exposure to foreign markets eith a glibal crash looming, increasing the number of children living in poverty, the 10p income tax farago etc etc etc. Care to show some evidence for your claim that significant numbers of people with disabilities are killing themselves due to current government policy, or was that just more emotive bollix??

[Prufrock]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... wants.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And that's in the Daily Mail, so it's hardly Guardian leftie propaganda.

[thebish]

On the other hand, we could have had 5 more years of Labour and been able to draw £60 a day from cash machines for the past year, unemployment oozing over the 3 million mark, uncontrolled immigration, the continual growth of a benefit culture and a further growth in child poverty. The last 5 years has been no picnic, but it could have been far, far worse.

That'll be due to that global financial crash caused by Labour overspending, right?

No, that'd be due to their sll round incomperence with the country's finances, selling off gold stocks with gold prices at an all time low, increasing our exposure to foreign markets eith a glibal crash looming, increasing the number of children living in poverty, the 10p income tax farago etc etc etc. Care to show some evidence for your claim that significant numbers of people with disabilities are killing themselves due to current government policy, or was that just more emotive bollix??

^ c'mon - Bobo typed that for you, didn't he!

[Bijou Bob]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... wants.html

And that's in the Daily Mail, so it's hardly Guardian leftie propaganda.

"My Lord, counsel for the prosecution has provided to the court, as evidence, an article from the Daily Heil. Not only is this not evidence, the source could be said to speak to the opposite. My rather unlearned colleague has failed to establish even a prima facie case and I therefore request that his case be dismissed"

Feck me Pru, quoting the Daily Heil??! Really? Are you Hoboh in disguise?? ARE YOU HOB-OH IN DISGUISE?

[thebish]

maybe one of the reasons Pru is not giving you the evidence you want is that campaign groups (like the Black Triangle Group) claim to have linked 80 or so suicides of disabled people directly to benefit cuts - but the Dept of Work and Pensions refuses to reveal the findings of their own peer reviews of suicides linked to the sanctions so we will never know the truth in those cases.

it is heavily reported the the gov. is now looking to review the freedom of information act to make it easier for governments to refuse to disclose information that they don't want people to know...

funny that...

here's the Black Triangle page if you're interested...

http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/2014/1 ... 21st-2014/

[Bijou Bob]

A 'campaign group', "Claims to have linked..." . To slightly misquote Mandy Rice Davies, "They would say that wouldn't they".

I'm all for informed debate, bit it has to be reasoned, qualified and evidenced to at least some degree! To claim the NHS is "Almost in mutiny" when to my certain knowledge, as I work in the organisation, it most certainly isn't and to link this to the Con government, when in fact it was Labour who introduced GP contracts, new 'Esso' contracts for consultants and an internal commissioning structure that is currently wasting 5 billion a year, is disingenuous.

[thebish]

if you read my post - I wasn't claiming to present "evidence" - merely suggesting why such "evidence" in the case of suicides amongs disabled people isn't readily available - namely because the govt refuses to release the figures that they have already researched...

until then - it's a fairly compelling collection of sories about peoples' lives - unless you are suggesting they are all or mostly made up?

(I said nothing about mutiny in the NHS or GP contracts)

[Bijou Bob]

Wouldn't that information be available via the coroners reports in each case??

[thebish]

Wouldn't that information be available via the coroners reports in each case??

I have never read a coroner's report so i can't comment on the likelihood of them making such a detailed assessment of the reasons for suicide rather than simply the actual cause of death...

If they did - and the coroners findings were made public as they often (always?) are - then maybe that is part of the evidence that Black Triangle have used to compile the list - many of the stories have links to newspaper articles where the deaths were reported.

the govt would have access to those - and have done the research - they simply refuse to tell us what they discovered...

this is only my opinion - but I reckon that if the govt had found the claims to be ludicrous and false - they would have revealed their findings... that would have been in their interest. but they didn't. maybe they had other reasons for not disclosing, but I am not party to them.

could the govt's disclosures even be classed as evidence by your "well they would say that wouldn't they" test anyway? Whence this impartial evidence you are asking for? Disability action groups are pretty much the only bodies that care enough to even think about the issue...

[Bijou Bob]

People whose mental health leads them to take their own life, do so for rarely singular reasons. A reduction in benefits may well be the straw that breaks the camel's back, but it would only be a contributory factor in what is usually a lengthy history of ill health.

[Prufrock]

If the Daily Mail are publishing a story defending people on benefits, I reckon the evidence is pretty convincing.

[thebish]

People whose mental health leads them to take their own life, do so for rarely singular reasons. A reduction in benefits may well be the straw that breaks the camel's back, but it would only be a contributory factor in what is usually a lengthy history of ill health.

indeed..

I don't know what the evidence you seek would look like. Reading those stories, though - if you believe them - offers a powerful insight into just what destructive and tragic consequences came from ATOS's hamfisted awfulness - and the govt must take some responsibility for awarding the conract and setting the parameters.

If as you (I think rightly) suggest the withdrawal/drastic reduction in benefits was the final straw - then in so many of those cases it was a totally un-necessary and unjust straw to impose upon already vulnerable people. (SO many of ATOS's judgements were later overturned on appeal - that much is a matter of public record).

given that - then I don't think Black Triangle's and consequently Pru's claim is as ludicrous or unfounded as you seemed to suggest.

[bobo the clown]

^^^ So what do you suggest Vicar ?

Only reduce benefits for people who aren't vulnerable ? Or continue forever with an in affordable benefit regime and one which does nothing to ween people off it ?

[thebish]

^^^ So what do you suggest Vicar ?

Only reduce benefits for people who aren't vulnerable ? Or continue forever with an in affordable benefit regime and one which does nothing to ween people off it ?

what I suggest is that Pru's statement about disabled people commiting suicide because of ATOS's bungling was not a ridiculous statement to make and is not totally plucked out of the air as in a mindless tirade - but (rather) backed up by real stuff that happened to real people.

As for disability benefit - were I in charge (which I am not) I would set policy so as to err on the side of caution when dealing with vulnerable people. I doubt this is a benefit that breaks the UK bank.

to my mind, a policy that led to such a hugely high proportion of adjudications that were later overturned on appeal can not have been a good one.

also, I don't think our benefit regime is inaffordable even when it errs on the side of caution for the most vulnerable. As you well know, tax evasion and fraud is MASSIVELY more damaging to the economy. If I was in charge of allocating resources to recover cash fraudulently robbed from the state - disability benefits wouldn't be the one I took the biggest hammer to...

but that's just a "christian marxist" - what would you do? pretend that all the stories are made up/dismiss them as a price worth paying?

[Bijou Bob]

If the Daily Mail are publishing a story defending people on benefits, I reckon the evidence is pretty convincing.

It's the Daily Heil, so no, it's not at all convincing. Would you suggest that Britain First are worth believing as they publish online stuff about not harming lovely puppies?

[Prufrock]

That's not the direct opposite of what they stand for, is it? They're wankers, but they're not *for* killing puppies.

If Britian First published figures showing immigrants are net contributors to the economy, I'd give those figures some weight, yes.