The Politics Thread

[thebish]

^ I suspect this is a fruitless discussion between you two! BUT - a closer analogy to Pru's argument would be...

"Would you suggest that Britain First are worth believing as they publish online stuff about treating immigrants with respect?"

Pru's point - surely! - is that defending benefit claimants is not the Daily Mail's usual stance...
Britain First wouldn't be stepping outside their comfort zone in the slightest to publish stuff online about not harming puppies... in fact - posting populist cuddly fb stuff about not harming animals is PRECISELY their normal MO!

[freeindeed]

Re: Trust on the economy, The Tories were elected on the promise that in exchange for accepting their "austerity measures" by 2015 the deficit would be £0 and therefore borrowing would also be reduced to zero. Instead in 2014-15 they borrowed £90 billion. George Osborne should be held responsible for failing to meet his own promise. He failed in his own terms, and should be accountable to it. Instead they successfully laid the blame on the previous government.

The more important discussion to be had is about the wider economic strategy. The Conservative/Republican (and 'New' Labour) ideological approach of de-regulation of financial services and reduced government spending has just lead to a worldwide crisis, forcing working people to near renationalise the banks, which are now being sold off at a massive loss. Privatising profit and nationalising debt will obviously not do.
We absolutely do not know the true instability of the system, and when or how big the next crash will be. It's been patched up at great cost, and now it's back to business as usual. Piketty has shown conclusively that inequality is rapidly widening, and that it is not sustainable.

At the very least, we need a very serious discussion about the wider structure of local and global economics. The only way to have this debate is through the dialectic with an alternative political/economic model. That is why it is so important to vote for Jeremy Corbyn.

[clapton is god]

#jezwecan.

Manchester this afternoon.

[Bijou Bob]

I too suspect it's a fruitless discussion as we clearly won't agree. I do suspect that the NHS which is "near to mutiny", will still be here in ten years time.

I also look forward to Pru posting in the Angry thread in ten years time or so, explaining why little Jemima and Quenten Prufrock have had to be enrolled in public school, the state schools being no place for his little darlings. Socialism is great for those impervious to its financial realities.

[freeindeed]

Socialism is great for those impervious to its financial realities.

What are those realities?

[Bijou Bob]

Noted on the previous page!

[thebish]

Noted on the previous page!

aye in that section of "reasoned, qualified and evidenced" "informed debating"!!

[Bijou Bob]

Noted on the previous page!

aye in that section of "reasoned, qualified and evidenced" "informed debating"!!

Yup, something you're happy to pick me up on, but doesn't seem to apply to the other side of the debate!

[thebish]

Noted on the previous page!

aye in that section of "reasoned, qualified and evidenced" "informed debating"!!

Yup, something you're happy to pick me up on, but doesn't seem to apply to the other side of the debate!

well, yes - in jest - but only because you were the one making such a claim! (plus - you already attacked Pru for it... it made more sense to point out the unfair part of your objection - namely, the disability welfare part...)

and I already gave Pru a bit of a bashing a couple of pages ago... y'see - I'm a balanced character - quite happy to slag labour, tory, libdem, UKIP and scotsnats...

you and bobo on the other hand - complete blind-spotted inability to slag the tories - even when they deserve it!

[freeindeed]

Corbyn on Andrew Marr this morning:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02y2ffn

[thebish]

Socialism is great for those impervious to its financial realities.

you could just as equally say the same about capitalism... it's a pretty meaningless slogan/soundbite - you could simplify it to - "the winners are happy"

the idea that any economic system or philosphy has no losers (people who are pervious to its financial realities) is a bit naive... In any economic system, the "winners" (those impervious to its financial realities) are generally happy.

[Bijou Bob]

I agree Bish, which is where Pru's argument for me falls down. Whatever the government or the past 5 years, there would have been disasters for some. I don't think the 'Losers' would in fact have been different whatever party had taken power.

[Prufrock]

Had a "debate" in the pub (heart of Islingtonia) this aft about the leadership contest. Apparently it's not just that Liz's is a Tory-lite, but apparently she actually is a Tory. She believes in the Govt austerity plan and only voted against it because she was whipped into doing it. So she's a Conservative who agrees with Tory policy but for some reason chose to join Labour instead so that she could be whipped into voting against the Tory policies she believes in.

This is quality if thought we're up against here!

[bobo the clown]

Had a "debate" in the pub (heart of Islingtonia) this aft about the leadership contest. Apparently it's not just that Liz's is a Tory-lite, but apparently she actually is a Tory. She believes in the Govt austerity plan and only voted against it because she was whipped into doing it. So she's a Conservative who agrees with Tory policy but for some reason chose to join Labour instead so that she could be whipped into voting against the Tory policies she believes in.

This is quality if thought we're up against here!

It's taken you this long to come face to face with perverse leftist thinking ?

That everything is a conspiracy and each step you take to get closer finds you two steps further away as they shift their ground ? Really ?

You will be voting Tory sooner than even I thought.

[Prufrock]

I've spent plenty time in and around that world and there aren't normally so many of them who are quite so nuts. This was proper tin-foil hat stuff. Funnily enough it ended with me and my mate (who's thinking of voting Jeremy but was helping to point out the bollocks of what she was saying) being told we should do what we clearly wanted and join the Tories . Lame-o.

As for this inexorable drift right to becoming a Tory voter, I don't see it. IMO being "leftist" crudely boils down to believing in common endeavour and the sharing of wealth as far as possible. Being "rightist" crudely boils down to everyone reaping the rewards of their individual work as far as possible. I don't buy into the idea that either of those is "morally" superior to the others, but I do and always have preferred the former as the basis of my politics because I think it minimises suffering and spreads wealth and happiness.

The "as far as possible" obviously makes a big difference in both of those contexts, with far-lefters wanting a to-each-and-from-each set up, and centre lefters wanting to allow the individual incentives of a market-place to propel the creation of wealth which can then be shared around; and far-righters believing in a tiny State with everyone getting by on their own and the centre-righters off-setting the cruelty of that with varying sizes of safety net.

My "as far as possible" has certainly changed since I was a student, but I still believe in the same fundamental. I'm much more centrist, but I'm still a Leftie (despite what Corbyn's campaign would have us believe, not everyone to the right of Jezza is a Tory). I'm also not one of those who viscerally hate Tories either (some of those who do I suspect of protesting too much as they themselves drift rightwards) - I don't think Tories are bad people by dint of being Tory, I just fundamentally and clear-headedly disagree with the first principles of where they're coming from. So, I don't think I'll ever end up voting Tory. Sorry to disappoint

[bobo the clown]

^^ you will

[freeindeed]

This is really good

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

I see they've concocted a conspiracy theory that there is a plot to get Corbyn elected by folk looking to bring down the Labour Party

[Prufrock]

Ha, fair point!

[thebish]

don't worry, pru - there are irrational lunatic thickos across the whole political spectrum - even in Bobo's beloved Tory Party - though he'd sooner vote Trotter in as Bolton's permanent player-manager than admit that...