And in other news we're still fecked

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Meanwhile in west London (or possibly South East Asia, he flies a lot), Tony Fernandes and his fellow QPR directors have quietly written off £180m in loans by turning them into Even More Shares. (I think we did this with Eddie a while back.)

[StaffsTrotter]

Kind of follows on from post I made below about how Fernandes was writing off debt to avoid FFP fines. It does pose an interesting contrast of approach. On GMR last night PG was getting a bit of stick, particularly from SJMcGinlay and frequent reference made to the £170m albatross hanging around the club. I guess this would have had PG spinning given the number of times he's been on GMR explaining its not normal debt, but does pose the question why doesnt ED effectively write it off (some or all) just to remove a major part of the bad smell that surrounds the club

StaffsTrotter Post subject: Re: If carlsberg did transfer threads.....This would be it!Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:02 am

Sorry its not about us - albeit on another forum a LB called Jse Manual Casano has been mentioned.

It was more about articles concerning FFP and QPR http://www.theguardian.com/football/201" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... ir-play-8m, which just give some idea of the bollocks of FFP and the reality of what we are competing with.
Some interesting points
- only being fined £8m - could/ should have been £50m
- seemed to get around it by the owner writing off the £60m loans (c'mon Eddie (easy when its somebody elses money))
- they got £9m as their part of the Sterling transfer
- they really are on their uppers - they won't pay more than £20kpw to new players

[bobo the clown]

The Fernando rouse was supposedly not allowed but it seems the bigger & more powerful the club the more flexible those rules are. To be fair it's not an even playing field and I don't know why we keep pretending it is.

ED is effectively writing of £150m by offering the club for £30m. (Unless you're jsw and believe those debts and his ownership and liability are made up).

[StaffsTrotter]

The Fernando rouse was supposedly not allowed but it seems the bigger & more powerful the club the more flexible those rules are. To be fair it's not an even playing field and I don't know why we keep pretending it is.

ED is effectively writing of £150m by offering the club for £30m. (Unless you're jsw and believe those debts and his ownership and liability are made up).

I get the intended potential write off by wanting 'only' £30m bit, but the £180m is what we are now associated with in the wider world. I don't know what the market is for a football club - have wolves been sorted yet- and particularly if ED/PG are aiming to make sure the sale will be in the clubs interest, but I'm guessing with how things are dragging on, thats theres not that many out there and even £30m, 40 or whatever is seen as too much. The other problem is, if during this protracted period the cheque book and pen are kept in the locked top drawer either because ED/ the board dont want to put money in or cannot because of FFP, its leading to what we are witnessing wrt transfer business.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

The Fernando rouse was supposedly not allowed but it seems the bigger & more powerful the club the more flexible those rules are. To be fair it's not an even playing field and I don't know why we keep pretending it is.

ED is effectively writing of £150m by offering the club for £30m. (Unless you're jsw and believe those debts and his ownership and liability are made up).

Effectively here meaning "in effect" rather than "having an effect". Because it's not having the desired effect. What reported interest have we had? Some Thais who quickly went cold then that thirtysomething Irish chancer?

With the debt-smell lingering, if he is truly happy to sell for £30m I wonder whether it would be better PR etc to just write off the debt as per Fernandes, and stick the club back on eBay/Craigslist/lampposts with a new pricetag.

(Unless of course there's some tax-type reason he doesn't want to do this.)

[BWFC_Insane]

Kind of follows on from post I made below about how Fernandes was writing off debt to avoid FFP fines. It does pose an interesting contrast of approach. On GMR last night PG was getting a bit of stick, particularly from SJMcGinlay and frequent reference made to the £170m albatross hanging around the club. I guess this would have had PG spinning given the number of times he's been on GMR explaining its not normal debt, but does pose the question why doesnt ED effectively write it off (some or all) just to remove a major part of the bad smell that surrounds the club

StaffsTrotter Post subject: Re: If carlsberg did transfer threads.....This would be it!Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:02 am

Sorry its not about us - albeit on another forum a LB called Jse Manual Casano has been mentioned.

It was more about articles concerning FFP and QPR http://www.theguardian.com/football/201" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... ir-play-8m, which just give some idea of the bollocks of FFP and the reality of what we are competing with.
Some interesting points
- only being fined £8m - could/ should have been £50m
- seemed to get around it by the owner writing off the £60m loans (c'mon Eddie (easy when its somebody elses money))
- they got £9m as their part of the Sterling transfer
- they really are on their uppers - they won't pay more than £20kpw to new players

Even if Eddie was to write off all the debt tomorrow (and I'm not sure he can actually do that - someone with better knowledge may help here) it makes zero difference.

The debt isn't the issue. The issue is Eddie doesn't want to invest anymore and we aren't yet running the club at break even. Either a way to generate more revenue needs to be found (very difficult) or an investor needs to be found (almost as difficult). Even if our debt was zero, we're still not able to spend money because we're not making any and Eddie isn't injecting any. Widely reported we have a £10M gap between expenditure and income. So given we're losing another £8M from parachute payments that only rises. Which means more cuts.

The debt level is irrelevant to that. I've heard John McGinlay wax lyrical on the subject but as much as he clearly cares, I think he should stick to talking about football as his grasp of the situation isn't really very good. Marc Iles seems more clued up. I didn't hear the program last night but saw there was people asking for Gartside to be sacked. And as Iles pointed out, with Eddie wanting out, he's unlikely to be bothering changing chairman. And ultimately we would be in the same position whoever was in effect CEO because the bottom line isn't going to change anytime soon.

[BWFC_Insane]

The Fernando rouse was supposedly not allowed but it seems the bigger & more powerful the club the more flexible those rules are. To be fair it's not an even playing field and I don't know why we keep pretending it is.

ED is effectively writing of £150m by offering the club for £30m. (Unless you're jsw and believe those debts and his ownership and liability are made up).

Effectively here meaning "in effect" rather than "having an effect". Because it's not having the desired effect. What reported interest have we had? Some Thais who quickly went cold then that thirtysomething Irish chancer?

With the debt-smell lingering, if he is truly happy to sell for £30m I wonder whether it would be better PR etc to just write off the debt as per Fernandes, and stick the club back on eBay/Craigslist/lampposts with a new pricetag.

(Unless of course there's some tax-type reason he doesn't want to do this.)

If you look at what Nixon said earlier this year the problem with selling the club isn't the debt, it is the cost of getting us back to the top flight. Anyone who takes over ultimately would want to get us promoted for money/media attention/PR/branding reasons.

And the cost of keeping us where we are is £10M a season.

So someone pays Eddie, £30M. Then £10M to bridge the deficit. That is £40M straight away. How many seasons will it take to get up and how much per season will it cost an investor? £20M? £30M? times by 2 or 3. And you're looking at £100M before you're even potentially thinking about premiership windfalls.

Were we midtable and breaking even we'd look far more attractive as a little bit of investment might propel us quickly upwards......

[Enoch]

If McGinley stopped talking about things where 'his grasp of the situation isn't really very good', who else would do Lennon's talking?

[officer_dibble]

With the debt-smell lingering, if he is truly happy to sell for £30m I wonder whether it would be better PR etc to just write off the debt as per Fernandes, and stick the club back on eBay/Craigslist/lampposts with a new pricetag.

(Unless of course there's some tax-type reason he doesn't want to do this.)

Is the tax write off helpfull to his other business interests as well I wonder? Meaning there is a value to the club for ED. just not a value worth putting money into it, certainly money which would contravene FFP. Genuine question!

[norm the jedi]

With the debt-smell lingering, if he is truly happy to sell for £30m I wonder whether it would be better PR etc to just write off the debt as per Fernandes, and stick the club back on eBay/Craigslist/lampposts with a new pricetag.

(Unless of course there's some tax-type reason he doesn't want to do this.)

Is the tax write off helpfull to his other business interests as well I wonder? Meaning there is a value to the club for ED. just not a value worth putting money into it, certainly money which would contravene FFP. Genuine question!

I suppose there's is a Tax mark down [refund] applicable to any operating losses? Also payments to service a debt attract relief when tax is calculated. So regular payment / lend lease is more efficient than outweight cash purchase for assets.
Wherever you look though you get into him being his own principle creditor via corporate entities. Such that any tax efficiency would be subject to the law of swings and roundabouts because one companies expenditure is the others income and thus subject to taxation.
Pretty sure that doesn't help a bit..
but I've typed it now..

[Jakerbeef]

You guys do realize this is a football forum aye?

Still, fascinating. Worrying.

[Gary the Enfield]

You guys do realize this is a football forum aye?

Still, fascinating. Worrying.

You do realise it's our football club they're discussing aye?

[thebish]

so - given it was all gonna be conformed over the weekend - tomorrow is a big day!

[Gudnib]

It was reported yesterday that Dean Holdsworth and another unnamed former player is taking Xpro Management (which helps impoverished former players) to court for alleged unpaid wages worth around £200,000.
Xpro is a registered charity but a company connected to it Xpro Managements Services Ltd was put into liquidation last month on the petition of a small firm of accountants called Irwin & Co.
It would be a surprise and a worry if the BWFC board weren't carrying out due diligence on any wannabe new owner.

[Lord Kangana]

(Unless of course there's some tax-type reason he doesn't want to do this.)

I think is the closest to the truth.

Although I am sick of hearing how good the current regime have been to the club. We're looking a good bet for relegation to League One with a mountain of debt and, if it is to believed, an unsustainable "business model" (f*ck, I hate business speak with every fibre of my being - what they mean to say is we're shit at generating enough money for it to be worth bothering with). And they want to jump ship. I can't for the life of me understand why...

A) We're constantly told how they're fans of the club. So what? I'm sure I could make a brilliant job of running it poorly.
B) How the f*ck they expect to attract any investment painting the picture they have.

[BWFC_Insane]

so - given it was all gonna be conformed over the weekend - tomorrow is a big day!

Nixon has been saying there is little in these rumours. His take is talks with no real money behind it so unlikely to go anywhere.

Given Iles seems clueless really about the takeover chances I'd not be holding my breath. Clearly talks have been held but there have been talks with lots of interested parties.

Do they have any money is the first hurdle.

[Hoboh]

I see we are back to quoting that great guru Nixon again!

[BWFC_Insane]

I see we are back to quoting that great guru Nixon again!

Not really, but there isn't exactly much to go on here. Him or some lion of Vienna site?

[BWFC_Insane]

(Unless of course there's some tax-type reason he doesn't want to do this.)

I think is the closest to the truth.

Although I am sick of hearing how good the current regime have been to the club. We're looking a good bet for relegation to League One with a mountain of debt and, if it is to believed, an unsustainable "business model" (f*ck, I hate business speak with every fibre of my being - what they mean to say is we're shit at generating enough money for it to be worth bothering with). And they want to jump ship. I can't for the life of me understand why...

A) We're constantly told how they're fans of the club. So what? I'm sure I could make a brilliant job of running it poorly.
B) How the f*ck they expect to attract any investment painting the picture they have.

Well, the debt has been accrued building a side that took us into Europe. Then trying to stay in the top flight and managing it for 11 years.

I think once people start talking about business models in football it leads to dangerous territory. There aren't exactly good business models for smaller clubs that also are likely to produce success on the pitch. By its nature football is an up and down thing.

You could say that we shouldn't have let Eddie invest and have the club in debt to him. But then that would have meant telling Allardyce he couldn't sign Diouf or Anelka. Which I'm sure Allardyce would have criticised at the time along with most fans of the club I suspect.

Once that spending happened, and Allardyce wanted more and then left, what should they have done? Cut their losses and accepted relegation? That is easy to say in hindsight but wouldn't have won many votes from fans at the time.

[Lord Kangana]

Allardyce left 8.5 years ago. We last played in Europe nearly 8 years ago. The debt didn't stop then. It accelerated away consistently and long after all of that.