The Politics Thread

[thebish]

maybe you could be clearer about what particular Corbyn-"means" you are claiming I have validated or embraced? Then I might have a chance at understanding what on earth you are on about...

[Lost Leopard Spot]

maybe you could be clearer about what particular Corbyn-"means" you are claiming I have validated or embraced? Then I might have a chance at understanding what on earth you are on about...

So you've not been defending to the hilt what he's been doing over the last 100 odd pages or so? You have in fact been complaining about what he's done to the Labour party?

[thebish]

maybe you could be clearer about what particular Corbyn-"means" you are claiming I have validated or embraced? Then I might have a chance at understanding what on earth you are on about...

So you've not been defending to the hilt what he's been doing over the last 100 odd pages or so? You have in fact been complaining about what he's done to the Labour party?

that's a no then... which is a shame - because it seems that you are dead sure that i have done summat real bad... but i can't grasp what on earth it is!

anyway... HITLER!!

[BWFC_Insane]

maybe you could be clearer about what particular Corbyn-"means" you are claiming I have validated or embraced? Then I might have a chance at understanding what on earth you are on about...

So you've not been defending to the hilt what he's been doing over the last 100 odd pages or so? You have in fact been complaining about what he's done to the Labour party?

that's a no then... which is a shame - because it seems that you are dead sure that i have done summat real bad... but i can't grasp what on earth it is!

anyway... HITLER!!

I think the question is (I hope its broadly this or I'm missing something major), that whilst you may agree with some or all of Corbyn's politics, is the damage he is doing to the Labour party going to be ultimately worth it?

And the path Labour are going down now, with internal divisions, bickering, open rebellion at times, was predicted widely prior to Corbyn's election and therefore the future is also easily predictable. The path of further splits, MPs leaving the party, further PR mess ups, bad press, more bad press and total oblivion in 2020.

[thebish]

I think the question is (I hope its broadly this or I'm missing something major), that whilst you may agree with some or all of Corbyn's politics, is the damage he is doing to the Labour party going to be ultimately worth it?

dunno - too early to tell what that "damage" might be. The labour party membership is currently growing at a pretty fast rate...

i'm not really in the game of guessing what will have happened in 4yrs time and then weighing it up against whether I think that imagined damage might be worth the relief of listening to a party leader actually propose policies I can wholeheartedly agree with...

you'd then have to weigh that up against the imagined "damage" of the labour party ignoring the huge mass of people who voted Corbyn in and choosing (say) Andy Burnham to lead them into the next election...

I don't think the parameters by which you might weigh up such a range of varied damage-scenarios 4yrs into the future is clear enough for me to give you anything other than an honest "dunno"!

Corbyn's been elected - fairly and convincingly - i can't change that - nor can you - yeah - you can piss and moan about it - but it's still the case. Personally I'm happy sitting back and giving him the time to get on with the job - it's not an easy one.

[Bruce Rioja]

dunno - too early to tell what that "damage" might be. The labour party membership is currently growing at a pretty fast rate...

Is that not chiefly down to the amount of non Labour voters who signed up to vote for Corbyn in the leadership election?

[bobo the clown]

Except it won't be "total oblivion" in 2020. The Party of old will be unrecognisable. There will be pacts with other leftist groups, including the Greens. .... and, in linear 'current' terms where do the "moderare" Labour voters shift out to ?

The Liberals ?? UKIP ??

Truth is he opened the doors on the left. It will shift people out on the right. But now he, & the left, own the party machine. They won't care too much that the right make a noise and they'll largely be deselected anyway over the coming 2 or 3 years.

It's likely to be a poor result in 2020 but they are playing the longer game and won't care too much as they move to establish a truly leftist party in their place.

[thebish]

dunno - too early to tell what that "damage" might be. The labour party membership is currently growing at a pretty fast rate...

Is that not chiefly down to the amount of non Labour voters who signed up to vote for Corbyn in the leadership election?

i think it was before the vote - but the growth has continued since the vote...

[Lost Leopard Spot]

maybe you could be clearer about what particular Corbyn-"means" you are claiming I have validated or embraced? Then I might have a chance at understanding what on earth you are on about...

So you've not been defending to the hilt what he's been doing over the last 100 odd pages or so? You have in fact been complaining about what he's done to the Labour party?

that's a no then... which is a shame - because it seems that you are dead sure that i have done summat real bad... but i can't grasp what on earth it is!

anyway... HITLER!!

What about Hitler?

[Lost Leopard Spot]

maybe you could be clearer about what particular Corbyn-"means" you are claiming I have validated or embraced? Then I might have a chance at understanding what on earth you are on about...

So you've not been defending to the hilt what he's been doing over the last 100 odd pages or so? You have in fact been complaining about what he's done to the Labour party?

that's a no then... which is a shame - because it seems that you are dead sure that i have done summat real bad... but i can't grasp what on earth it is!

You are like a politician. A no to one is a yes to the other.

And it's only you who is stating that I'm saying you've done summat real bad. I didn't say that.

[thebish]

phew!

[Lord Kangana]

I find it difficult to believe that the massive amount of votes that Corbyn received were due in large part to the childish c*nts who can't wrap their heads around democracy and democratic process. I can just imagine the same types, copy of The Daily Mail under their arms fist-shaking at the world Victor Meldrew-style if someone parks their car wrongly, yet find this kind of puerile behaviour appropriate.

Regardless of whether anyone likes Corbyn or not, they should sit up and take notice that he A) Has the largest democratic mandate of any elected leader of any party in history B) Has such a large percentage of young voters engaging in that process. Whether ultimately he makes any headway in leading this country, a probably unlikely scenario, I think it would be trite to ignore the paradigm shift that has taken place with many of the young of this country. Not us older types, who have careers and assets under our belts, but the significantly large proportion of youngsters in this country who know only uncertainty and inconsistency of work, low pay, high debt and an erosion of a social safety net. To ignore that would be to ignore the reasons behind why he is there. I appreciate some would like to, but democratic capitalism at this moment is failing that generation. That's much more dangerous than Corbyn.

[Hoboh]

I find it difficult to believe that the massive amount of votes that Corbyn received were due in large part to the childish c*nts who can't wrap their heads around democracy and democratic process. I can just imagine the same types, copy of The Daily Mail under their arms fist-shaking at the world Victor Meldrew-style if someone parks their car wrongly, yet find this kind of puerile behaviour appropriate.

Regardless of whether anyone likes Corbyn or not, they should sit up and take notice that he A) Has the largest democratic mandate of any elected leader of any party in history B) Has such a large percentage of young voters engaging in that process. Whether ultimately he makes any headway in leading this country, a probably unlikely scenario, I think it would be trite to ignore the paradigm shift that has taken place with many of the young of this country. Not us older types, who have careers and assets under our belts, but the significantly large proportion of youngsters in this country who know only uncertainty and inconsistency of work, low pay, high debt and an erosion of a social safety net. To ignore that would be to ignore the reasons behind why he is there. I appreciate some would like to, but democratic capitalism at this moment is failing that generation. That's much more dangerous than Corbyn.

Ahhh, young voters, pmsl those who find it hard to drag their self from the soaps or x-box and find it hard work to walk to a polling station and put an x in the box because they cannot do it via Facebook.
Right.

[BWFC_Insane]

I find it difficult to believe that the massive amount of votes that Corbyn received were due in large part to the childish c*nts who can't wrap their heads around democracy and democratic process. I can just imagine the same types, copy of The Daily Mail under their arms fist-shaking at the world Victor Meldrew-style if someone parks their car wrongly, yet find this kind of puerile behaviour appropriate.

Regardless of whether anyone likes Corbyn or not, they should sit up and take notice that he A) Has the largest democratic mandate of any elected leader of any party in history B) Has such a large percentage of young voters engaging in that process. Whether ultimately he makes any headway in leading this country, a probably unlikely scenario, I think it would be trite to ignore the paradigm shift that has taken place with many of the young of this country. Not us older types, who have careers and assets under our belts, but the significantly large proportion of youngsters in this country who know only uncertainty and inconsistency of work, low pay, high debt and an erosion of a social safety net. To ignore that would be to ignore the reasons behind why he is there. I appreciate some would like to, but democratic capitalism at this moment is failing that generation. That's much more dangerous than Corbyn.

If there has been a paradigm shift, as you suggest, he will surely improve the Labour Party performance in the next election. Otherwise I think it is fair to say there isn't any meaningful shift beyond the way Labour membership works.

[Lord Kangana]

Paradigm shift is with the young, not Corbyn. The worrying attitude that Russell Brand expressed is one facet, the move to the left of Labour i another. Hobes' attitude is the one I speak of. Beware complacency and ignorance.

[Prufrock]

I don't disagree with much of that, but it's worth pointing out in defence of the MPs that their duty lies to their constituents who elected them on the basis that the MPs views represent the constituency. Of course it's a little complicated by the idea of party whips, but as a general rule the MPs can't conduct themselves contrary to their own beliefs on the basis that 400,000 members elected the party leader who stands for things incompatible with their own beliefs.

not really, though... you may SAY that's how it works - but it's not really! They were elected (apart from those few with a huge personal local support - and there are some of those) not on their own beliefs - but on the manifesto put forward by a milliband-led labour party.

your scenario would only really work if all MPs stood as independents - spouting their own beliefs - and then made party coalitions AFTER being elected...

if this were really how it worked - then MPs would be polling their constituents to see how they should vote every week...

the whole system of who represents who and who they "work" for is quite complex/confusing..

MPs - the constituency (in theory) - but most of the time a majority didn't want them - are they representing their views? if so - how? if they are in the cabinet - then they have another responsibility - they represent the party... how do you balance that? and they also have their own ideas!

ooposition leaders - the MPs/cabinet? - the party as a whole?

PMs - their party - their MPS? - the country??

none of it is at all clear (not to me anyway!)

Well, there are several constitutional text books that could be written just on this exchange!

What is clear, however, is that MPs owe their duty to their constituents (in whatever sense) rather than to party members, affiliates or supporters. Corbyn's supporters praise him for "standing up for what he believes in" (a phrase which when uttered is is usually code for "believes in what the speaker believes in") but then criticise his MPs for standing up for what *they* believe in.

Also, you've mentioned several times, on several topics, that Corbyn gets slagged off for doing something, then slagged off for changing his mind and doing something else, implying that this somehow involves double standards and a contradiction. Well no, it isn't double standards to say that doing A rather than B would be stupid, and then when A goes tits up and he moves on to B, point out that we told you A was stupid.

[Prufrock]

I find it difficult to believe that the massive amount of votes that Corbyn received were due in large part to the childish c*nts who can't wrap their heads around democracy and democratic process. I can just imagine the same types, copy of The Daily Mail under their arms fist-shaking at the world Victor Meldrew-style if someone parks their car wrongly, yet find this kind of puerile behaviour appropriate.

Regardless of whether anyone likes Corbyn or not, they should sit up and take notice that he A) Has the largest democratic mandate of any elected leader of any party in history B) Has such a large percentage of young voters engaging in that process. Whether ultimately he makes any headway in leading this country, a probably unlikely scenario, I think it would be trite to ignore the paradigm shift that has taken place with many of the young of this country. Not us older types, who have careers and assets under our belts, but the significantly large proportion of youngsters in this country who know only uncertainty and inconsistency of work, low pay, high debt and an erosion of a social safety net. To ignore that would be to ignore the reasons behind why he is there. I appreciate some would like to, but democratic capitalism at this moment is failing that generation. That's much more dangerous than Corbyn.

Paradigm shift? There are 600,000 members, far from all of whom are young, in a country of 80m. I don't imagine the data to test this exists, but I'd be astonished if a significant proportion of those young people who did join up, or go to see Corbyn speak, were people who hadn't voted at the last election, or, if under 18, would have done had they been eligible. Again, I'll be astonished if turn-out in 2020 is significantly higher that 2015.

[BWFC_Insane]

Paradigm shift is with the young, not Corbyn. The worrying attitude that Russell Brand expressed is one facet, the move to the left of Labour i another. Hobes' attitude is the one I speak of. Beware complacency and ignorance.

If he has caused that shift in the young then like I say he will improve the electoral performance.

I fear that he has not enacted an Obama style paradigm shift or awakening, and rather will turn more away from voting Labour.

But we shall see.

[thebish]

What is clear, however, is that MPs owe their duty to their constituents (in whatever sense) rather than to party members, affiliates or supporters. Corbyn's supporters praise him for "standing up for what he believes in" (a phrase which when uttered is is usually code for "believes in what the speaker believes in") but then criticise his MPs for standing up for what *they* believe in.

well.. with a slight modification... on the subject we are talking about - or at least *were* talking about - being a member of the shadow cabinet - I don't think members have been sacked for disagreeing with corbyn or having a different opinion or standing up for what they believe in - Benn did that VERY VERY clearly and publically - as did other cabinet members and they are still in place...

that's quite a different matter than being in the shadow cabinet and using lots of your time to plot and piss and whine at the legitimacy of the leader - which (i think) is the reason for the sackings from the shadow cabinet... i may be wrong - but if i am right - that's absolutely fair enough in my book!

I don't think I have heard Corbyn "criticise his MPs for standing up for what they believe in..." have you? (disagreeing with them is not the same thing!)

[thebish]

Also, you've mentioned several times, on several topics, that Corbyn gets slagged off for doing something, then slagged off for changing his mind and doing something else, implying that this somehow involves double standards and a contradiction. Well no, it isn't double standards to say that doing A rather than B would be stupid, and then when A goes tits up and he moves on to B, point out that we told you A was stupid.

actually - I don't think I have said that Corbyn has changed his mind and done summat else.. have I?

certainly not on the cabinet reshuffle issue. I think you might be making that up or simply mistaken.