Sajid Javid's Taxi Service.

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Re: Sajid Javid's Taxi Service.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:23 am

Hoboh wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:43 am
The misguided idea that 'growth' is the answer to all ailments is twaddle, it is an illusion in much the same way the value of company stocks and shares are. It is a bubble that very often bursts the second growth slows or stops most companies have not got a pot to p*ss in, seen it many times and what happens then? Cut, cut, cut and the downward spiral along with the inevitable company failure arrives.
The only market is the new product/new idea that everyone wants at first and there are only so many of these, once a market peaks the only way is down. Currently I work part time for a huge multi-national that makes the NHS look like a corner shop and they are heading downwards even though their competitors are nearly at peak level, the markets are not infinite.
Steady growth, a skilled workforce, cash in the bank instead of fuelling the shares, and innovation are the way forward, not cheap labour with questionable qualifications.

IT and robots well, when that arrives big time the French Yellow jackets will look like naughty children, mind by then they will be facing company owned Robocops not PC Plod.
The entire concept of capitalism is founded on a principle of growth (or decline and eradication). We're talking globally here on a macro level. It takes no prisoners. Companes grow and decline but the overall picture is what is important. I'm fully open to hearing a viable alternative economic model that promotes sustainability over growth. However, currently only one alternative exists and I'm fairly sure it isn't one you'd be happy with.

On the micro (country) level I do think there are ways to moderate capitalism to make it better and to ensure that profit and growth, whilst remaining important, do not overtake everything else.

By the way - last time I looked only two multinationals employed more people than the NHS - Walmart and McDonalds. So are you a shelf stacker or a burger flipper? :wink:

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Re: Sajid Javid's Taxi Service.

Post by Hoboh » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:23 am

I see we are wasting the time of the Royal navy now, unless that is, we are going to sink the boats!

The only way to stop these people trying in large numbers is to ship them back to the continent they came from immediately, they will soon stop or run out of cash to pay the smugglers.

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Re: Sajid Javid's Taxi Service.

Post by Hoboh » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:25 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:23 am
Hoboh wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:43 am
The misguided idea that 'growth' is the answer to all ailments is twaddle, it is an illusion in much the same way the value of company stocks and shares are. It is a bubble that very often bursts the second growth slows or stops most companies have not got a pot to p*ss in, seen it many times and what happens then? Cut, cut, cut and the downward spiral along with the inevitable company failure arrives.
The only market is the new product/new idea that everyone wants at first and there are only so many of these, once a market peaks the only way is down. Currently I work part time for a huge multi-national that makes the NHS look like a corner shop and they are heading downwards even though their competitors are nearly at peak level, the markets are not infinite.
Steady growth, a skilled workforce, cash in the bank instead of fuelling the shares, and innovation are the way forward, not cheap labour with questionable qualifications.

IT and robots well, when that arrives big time the French Yellow jackets will look like naughty children, mind by then they will be facing company owned Robocops not PC Plod.
The entire concept of capitalism is founded on a principle of growth (or decline and eradication). We're talking globally here on a macro level. It takes no prisoners. Companes grow and decline but the overall picture is what is important. I'm fully open to hearing a viable alternative economic model that promotes sustainability over growth. However, currently only one alternative exists and I'm fairly sure it isn't one you'd be happy with.

On the micro (country) level I do think there are ways to moderate capitalism to make it better and to ensure that profit and growth, whilst remaining important, do not overtake everything else.

By the way - last time I looked only two multinationals employed more people than the NHS - Walmart and McDonalds. So are you a shelf stacker or a burger flipper? :wink:
I couldn't possibly say, they trawl social media :D

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Re: Sajid Javid's Taxi Service.

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:24 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:58 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:38 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:11 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:43 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:22 am
TANGODANCER wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:08 am
^^
Ah Harry, in theory, I agree with much you say; it isn't the country that's wrong, the world's a wonderful place and we're priveleged to live here in the U.K. But do you leave your back door open at night or when you go out? Do you leave your car unlocked or anything of value in sight in it? Do you walk down dark places in the early hours on your own? The police can't deal with crime fully because they are understaffed, the fire brigade get attacked trying to put fires out that kids start for fun, and idiots lob house bricks off bridges at cars. (Ever had that happen to you?, I have, off the bridge over Stoneclough Road). Do immigrants get told any of that?

I believe in (and pray every night for) world peace. I'm a Christian and wish no man ill. I'm also a realist and believe in Yin and Yang (I have to be, I've lived in Farnworth for 45 years and lived in housing estates here and in Westhoughton and I'm tough enough to take it all. I live in a decent district now, with a fair proporton of Asian and other folk, but this is Lancashire not Los Angeles,(although we don't have London's scale of problems ) . I worry for my kids and grandkids sakes though, and I'm not blind to all that's wrong, and much of it is in the running of a country where Parliament is at war with itself daily. There's nothing wrong with anyone wanting a better life, and it surely isn't just the U.K that's a magnet, but the real problems are with the fairytale false promise merchants who keep singing " Land of Hope and Glory" to wannabee immigrants and pretending we still live in an Empire of milk and honey. 219,000 immigrants landed here up to June this year. How many more do you think we can support? There are signs of a drop in past years, but that can be down to many things, the EU being one.

All I'm really saying, is we need an eyes wide open attitude and accept the reality rather than the dream. Don't ask me for a solution, I haven't got one. I'll just keep praying...
The problem is that what you describe as a problem "rise in crime, breakdown of local communities etc"...(hopefully I've paraphrased correctly)...is not something that has happened overnight or as a result broadly, of immigration. It has been a gradual change in the way our society functions. For lots of reasons.

However, the idea that there was a mythical point in time where everyone left their doors wide open, there was no crime and everything was groovy is a nonsense. We've advanced in many ways (how many kids get TB etc now for example) and as a result some things have got worse. The main point is that we've become better as a society and therefore more want in, and we can also keep more people alive longer. This means we have more people. I do not think that is a primary problem or cause of what you describe. Think about the generation of manual workers left stranded by the shift away from manufacturing in the late 70's and 80's. How many "sink estates" that we have are a result of that. Nothing, whatsoever to do with immigration. But even if you disagree you have to concede that like it or not, we are heavily dependent upon immigrants and that there will never be a turning off of the tap that does not hugely hurt our NHS and wider public services alongside vast swathes of the private sector.

The reality is that you can if you want, find the bad in everything. The balance is that most of our problems stem from our own choices as a nation. And for that, we only have to blame ourselves.
There are, at least, three things wrong with your analysis of Tango's points.
You assume like most economists, capitalists and businessmen that growth is essential for an economy to survive. I say bollox to that, sustainability should be key, and growth as s target should be banned outright.
Which puts into sharp perspective the need for immigrants. With no growth in the economy we don't have to be continually on the gerbil wheel of employing more people to taxi people to more jobs requiring more health professionals to look after more people with more teachers required to educate more children and more builders to build houses to house all the fxcking extra taxi drivers, hospital cleaners, nurses, doctors and brickies we need to import to sustain those we imported decades ago. Just cease with the 'growth'.
Thirdly it's a trope that the past was shitter than now and there wasn't a golden age. Sorry, there was. The late 50s and early 60s in this country are about as golden as you could get.
We live, not in a capitalist country now, but a capitalist world. Like it or not. What you describe as an economic model is essentially a type of communism. Sustainability over growth. Even if such an idea were practically possible - (it isn't) the reality is that the people of this country would never be satisfied with it. The businesses that pull out, and jobs lost and end of consumer behaviour (whether in the long run advantageous or not) would simply not be tolerated.

As for the "golden age" theory - for every good thing you can mention there are equally a number of bad things too.

It is true that post-war baby boomers enjoyed (relative to their predecessors) the most priviliged and improved lives any generation had ever seen before or since. They enjoyed the advent of the NHS, free education right up to University, the era of free love, drugs and rock and roll. Increase in house ownership but also huge increases in state housing provision. They enjoyed the new welfare state that propped them up.

That generation were very privileged compared to their parents and grandparents and great-grandparents. Yet now they are seemingly hell-bent on taking those very things they enjoyed away from future generations.

However, it does not equate a golden age. For example, in 1961 the life expectancy for a man was 68. Now it is 79.
68 v 79 is no argument against a golden age. That's just actuarial stuff. All eight of my great grandparents died in the era and everyone of them was 90+. Those who died early the 50/60s dragged down the averages, but a healthy life expectancy was about the same length as you could expect now.
Plus, it's not some kind of utopian dream to have zero growth. It's a fxcking necessity. The planet cannot go on 'growing'. Someone, somewhere, in some country needs to start this. Why Not here?

As somebody said on TV last night: the international spread of capitalism has expanded as far as it can probably get, now the masses are being exploited by the international manipulation of labour... Too fxcking true.
Your age thing....that is ridiculous. Life expectancy is of course averaged out. The fact more people died early is not a good thing.

As for your second point - on a macro huge scale you are right. The problem is the UK cannot unilaterally say "we're pulling out of capitalism and becoming a self-sustaining commune" without agreement from its people. And its people will not agree to that. Even then its entirely impractical in the forseeable future. I rather think that before that happens we'll be colonising some other planet somewhere else to support our "growth".
You quite like saying that that other people's statements are ridiculous.

Think for a moment.

Ten people alive in era A. Three died young. The rest lived a healthy life and died aged around 75 or so, after each had a short bout of terminal illness. (Average age at death: 68, average length of illness free living: 60 years.
Ten people alive in era B. None die young. All live to a ripe old age of 79 before pegging out. (Average age of death: 79, average length of illness free living: 25 years because all ten were obesely fat waddling lumps, riddled by diabetes, emphysema, mental illness, paranoia, and allergies)

Choose your golden era.

As I said, actuarial age of death is no indicator of golden eras. Not ridiculous, just logic.
And this is relevant because although we have a longer lifespan now we have an unhealthier lifestyle. There was no Obesity Crisis back in the 60s (at least not in England). Nobody went around asking if stuff had peanuts in it, or if it was gluten free.
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Re: Sajid Javid's Taxi Service.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:11 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:24 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:58 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:38 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:11 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:43 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:22 am
TANGODANCER wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:08 am
^^
Ah Harry, in theory, I agree with much you say; it isn't the country that's wrong, the world's a wonderful place and we're priveleged to live here in the U.K. But do you leave your back door open at night or when you go out? Do you leave your car unlocked or anything of value in sight in it? Do you walk down dark places in the early hours on your own? The police can't deal with crime fully because they are understaffed, the fire brigade get attacked trying to put fires out that kids start for fun, and idiots lob house bricks off bridges at cars. (Ever had that happen to you?, I have, off the bridge over Stoneclough Road). Do immigrants get told any of that?

I believe in (and pray every night for) world peace. I'm a Christian and wish no man ill. I'm also a realist and believe in Yin and Yang (I have to be, I've lived in Farnworth for 45 years and lived in housing estates here and in Westhoughton and I'm tough enough to take it all. I live in a decent district now, with a fair proporton of Asian and other folk, but this is Lancashire not Los Angeles,(although we don't have London's scale of problems ) . I worry for my kids and grandkids sakes though, and I'm not blind to all that's wrong, and much of it is in the running of a country where Parliament is at war with itself daily. There's nothing wrong with anyone wanting a better life, and it surely isn't just the U.K that's a magnet, but the real problems are with the fairytale false promise merchants who keep singing " Land of Hope and Glory" to wannabee immigrants and pretending we still live in an Empire of milk and honey. 219,000 immigrants landed here up to June this year. How many more do you think we can support? There are signs of a drop in past years, but that can be down to many things, the EU being one.

All I'm really saying, is we need an eyes wide open attitude and accept the reality rather than the dream. Don't ask me for a solution, I haven't got one. I'll just keep praying...
The problem is that what you describe as a problem "rise in crime, breakdown of local communities etc"...(hopefully I've paraphrased correctly)...is not something that has happened overnight or as a result broadly, of immigration. It has been a gradual change in the way our society functions. For lots of reasons.

However, the idea that there was a mythical point in time where everyone left their doors wide open, there was no crime and everything was groovy is a nonsense. We've advanced in many ways (how many kids get TB etc now for example) and as a result some things have got worse. The main point is that we've become better as a society and therefore more want in, and we can also keep more people alive longer. This means we have more people. I do not think that is a primary problem or cause of what you describe. Think about the generation of manual workers left stranded by the shift away from manufacturing in the late 70's and 80's. How many "sink estates" that we have are a result of that. Nothing, whatsoever to do with immigration. But even if you disagree you have to concede that like it or not, we are heavily dependent upon immigrants and that there will never be a turning off of the tap that does not hugely hurt our NHS and wider public services alongside vast swathes of the private sector.

The reality is that you can if you want, find the bad in everything. The balance is that most of our problems stem from our own choices as a nation. And for that, we only have to blame ourselves.
There are, at least, three things wrong with your analysis of Tango's points.
You assume like most economists, capitalists and businessmen that growth is essential for an economy to survive. I say bollox to that, sustainability should be key, and growth as s target should be banned outright.
Which puts into sharp perspective the need for immigrants. With no growth in the economy we don't have to be continually on the gerbil wheel of employing more people to taxi people to more jobs requiring more health professionals to look after more people with more teachers required to educate more children and more builders to build houses to house all the fxcking extra taxi drivers, hospital cleaners, nurses, doctors and brickies we need to import to sustain those we imported decades ago. Just cease with the 'growth'.
Thirdly it's a trope that the past was shitter than now and there wasn't a golden age. Sorry, there was. The late 50s and early 60s in this country are about as golden as you could get.
We live, not in a capitalist country now, but a capitalist world. Like it or not. What you describe as an economic model is essentially a type of communism. Sustainability over growth. Even if such an idea were practically possible - (it isn't) the reality is that the people of this country would never be satisfied with it. The businesses that pull out, and jobs lost and end of consumer behaviour (whether in the long run advantageous or not) would simply not be tolerated.

As for the "golden age" theory - for every good thing you can mention there are equally a number of bad things too.

It is true that post-war baby boomers enjoyed (relative to their predecessors) the most priviliged and improved lives any generation had ever seen before or since. They enjoyed the advent of the NHS, free education right up to University, the era of free love, drugs and rock and roll. Increase in house ownership but also huge increases in state housing provision. They enjoyed the new welfare state that propped them up.

That generation were very privileged compared to their parents and grandparents and great-grandparents. Yet now they are seemingly hell-bent on taking those very things they enjoyed away from future generations.

However, it does not equate a golden age. For example, in 1961 the life expectancy for a man was 68. Now it is 79.
68 v 79 is no argument against a golden age. That's just actuarial stuff. All eight of my great grandparents died in the era and everyone of them was 90+. Those who died early the 50/60s dragged down the averages, but a healthy life expectancy was about the same length as you could expect now.
Plus, it's not some kind of utopian dream to have zero growth. It's a fxcking necessity. The planet cannot go on 'growing'. Someone, somewhere, in some country needs to start this. Why Not here?

As somebody said on TV last night: the international spread of capitalism has expanded as far as it can probably get, now the masses are being exploited by the international manipulation of labour... Too fxcking true.
Your age thing....that is ridiculous. Life expectancy is of course averaged out. The fact more people died early is not a good thing.

As for your second point - on a macro huge scale you are right. The problem is the UK cannot unilaterally say "we're pulling out of capitalism and becoming a self-sustaining commune" without agreement from its people. And its people will not agree to that. Even then its entirely impractical in the forseeable future. I rather think that before that happens we'll be colonising some other planet somewhere else to support our "growth".
You quite like saying that that other people's statements are ridiculous.

Think for a moment.

Ten people alive in era A. Three died young. The rest lived a healthy life and died aged around 75 or so, after each had a short bout of terminal illness. (Average age at death: 68, average length of illness free living: 60 years.
Ten people alive in era B. None die young. All live to a ripe old age of 79 before pegging out. (Average age of death: 79, average length of illness free living: 25 years because all ten were obesely fat waddling lumps, riddled by diabetes, emphysema, mental illness, paranoia, and allergies)

Choose your golden era.

As I said, actuarial age of death is no indicator of golden eras. Not ridiculous, just logic.
And this is relevant because although we have a longer lifespan now we have an unhealthier lifestyle. There was no Obesity Crisis back in the 60s (at least not in England). Nobody went around asking if stuff had peanuts in it, or if it was gluten free.
No - they just died, or suffered on in pain.

I feel like I'm talking to Piers Morgan now!

Life expectancy is a key measure of a society's health and ultimately fortune. Your argument initially was that average life expectancy was somehow distorted. You've somewhat morphed that argument into an ambiguous discussion about quality of life, with absolutely no data to back it up, merely anecdote. The fact people live longer suggests we are far better at diagnosing and treating ailments. As for "health" and your anecdotal discussion of "obesity", how about the numbers smoking cancerous tar directly into their lungs? Or breathing in dangerous substances at work.....how would that compare?

Life expectancy takes all this into account - as well as the quality of health provision.

Golden age stuff is fantasy nonsense IMHO. Interestingly mainly peddled by Brexiteers. Larger class sizes in the early 60s, a generally poorer standard of education - though denying the working class a proper education seems to be a tick for many Brexit "the late 50s are our dream" brigade. Ironically the working class seem upset about working class kids going to Uni....

Anyhow...probably best to agree to disagree.

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Re: Sajid Javid's Taxi Service.

Post by TANGODANCER » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:09 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:11 pm

Golden age stuff is fantasy nonsense IMHO. Interestingly mainly peddled by Brexiteers. Larger class sizes in the early 60s, a generally poorer standard of education - though denying the working class a proper education seems to be a tick for many Brexit "the late 50s are our dream" brigade. Ironically the working class seem upset about working class kids going to Uni....Anyhow...probably best to agree to disagree.
Sounds decidedly like that's coming from someone who never had one! Lifetime itself isn't a total golden era; too much happens that's outside our control, but having a personal golden era is just that, "pesonal"..One man's meat etc. Me, I never really cared much about facts and figures, data and generalities. I've seen enough of the bad bits and climbed a few mountains, but I've also been too busy enjoying the better bits of it all not to have a golden era. Then again, I still expect Bolton to win every game and don't discount fairies or Santa Clause and was 18 when Harold Macmillan told us we'd never had it so good!" .... :lol:
The wisest and the best of men, nay, the wisest and best of their actions, may be rendered ridiculous by a person whose first object in life is a joke...Darcy. Pride and Prejudice.

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Re: Sajid Javid's Taxi Service.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:31 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:09 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:11 pm

Golden age stuff is fantasy nonsense IMHO. Interestingly mainly peddled by Brexiteers. Larger class sizes in the early 60s, a generally poorer standard of education - though denying the working class a proper education seems to be a tick for many Brexit "the late 50s are our dream" brigade. Ironically the working class seem upset about working class kids going to Uni....Anyhow...probably best to agree to disagree.
Sounds decidedly like that's coming from someone who never had one! Lifetime itself isn't a total golden era; too much happens that's outside our control, but having a personal golden era is just that, "pesonal"..One man's meat etc. Me, I never really cared much about facts and figures, data and generalities. I've seen enough of the bad bits and climbed a few mountains, but I've also been too busy enjoying the better bits of it all not to have a golden era. Then again, I still expect Bolton to win every game and don't discount fairies or Santa Clause and was 18 when Harold Macmillan told us we'd never had it so good!" .... :lol:
Personal "golden era" is absolutely different.

Harking back to any era and saying "it was objectively better then" as LLS has done IMHO is a nonsense. Things change constantly. Somethings for the better some for the worse.

There is a huge amount of hope currently. We have a generation behind my own of people who see the world differently and who want to change it. I hope I manage to stay alive long enough to see if they manage it. The big issues like climate change that have been ignored for so long I believe will be tackled and I hope it isn't too late. What I'd like is for the current generation in power to realise they have a mantle to pass on - my deep, deep frustration is that our current leaders (and electorate) seem selfish to levels previously unheard of in this country. I remain hopeful though that direct action will ultimately prevail because the ballot box no longer seems to offer up the options necessary to make things that are required happen.

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Re: Sajid Javid's Taxi Service.

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:42 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:31 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:09 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:11 pm

Golden age stuff is fantasy nonsense IMHO. Interestingly mainly peddled by Brexiteers. Larger class sizes in the early 60s, a generally poorer standard of education - though denying the working class a proper education seems to be a tick for many Brexit "the late 50s are our dream" brigade. Ironically the working class seem upset about working class kids going to Uni....Anyhow...probably best to agree to disagree.
Sounds decidedly like that's coming from someone who never had one! Lifetime itself isn't a total golden era; too much happens that's outside our control, but having a personal golden era is just that, "pesonal"..One man's meat etc. Me, I never really cared much about facts and figures, data and generalities. I've seen enough of the bad bits and climbed a few mountains, but I've also been too busy enjoying the better bits of it all not to have a golden era. Then again, I still expect Bolton to win every game and don't discount fairies or Santa Clause and was 18 when Harold Macmillan told us we'd never had it so good!" .... :lol:
Personal "golden era" is absolutely different.

Harking back to any era and saying "it was objectively better then" as LLS has done IMHO is a nonsense. Things change constantly. Somethings for the better some for the worse.

There is a huge amount of hope currently. We have a generation behind my own of people who see the world differently and who want to change it. I hope I manage to stay alive long enough to see if they manage it. The big issues like climate change that have been ignored for so long I believe will be tackled and I hope it isn't too late. What I'd like is for the current generation in power to realise they have a mantle to pass on - my deep, deep frustration is that our current leaders (and electorate) seem selfish to levels previously unheard of in this country. I remain hopeful though that direct action will ultimately prevail because the ballot box no longer seems to offer up the options necessary to make things that are required happen.
God you talk some Nonsense. You yourself said "Baby Boomers enjoyed the most privileged and improved life ever". Now you're saying it's just in my own head.
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Re: Sajid Javid's Taxi Service.

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:54 pm

And anyway. Lifespan has little to do with immigration.
What you failed to address was that capitalism has spread it's tentacles as far as possible. It's only expansionist outlet is now through the masses being exploited by the international exploitation of labour, including mass movements of people.
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Re: Sajid Javid's Taxi Service.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:55 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:42 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:31 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:09 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:11 pm

Golden age stuff is fantasy nonsense IMHO. Interestingly mainly peddled by Brexiteers. Larger class sizes in the early 60s, a generally poorer standard of education - though denying the working class a proper education seems to be a tick for many Brexit "the late 50s are our dream" brigade. Ironically the working class seem upset about working class kids going to Uni....Anyhow...probably best to agree to disagree.
Sounds decidedly like that's coming from someone who never had one! Lifetime itself isn't a total golden era; too much happens that's outside our control, but having a personal golden era is just that, "pesonal"..One man's meat etc. Me, I never really cared much about facts and figures, data and generalities. I've seen enough of the bad bits and climbed a few mountains, but I've also been too busy enjoying the better bits of it all not to have a golden era. Then again, I still expect Bolton to win every game and don't discount fairies or Santa Clause and was 18 when Harold Macmillan told us we'd never had it so good!" .... :lol:
Personal "golden era" is absolutely different.

Harking back to any era and saying "it was objectively better then" as LLS has done IMHO is a nonsense. Things change constantly. Somethings for the better some for the worse.

There is a huge amount of hope currently. We have a generation behind my own of people who see the world differently and who want to change it. I hope I manage to stay alive long enough to see if they manage it. The big issues like climate change that have been ignored for so long I believe will be tackled and I hope it isn't too late. What I'd like is for the current generation in power to realise they have a mantle to pass on - my deep, deep frustration is that our current leaders (and electorate) seem selfish to levels previously unheard of in this country. I remain hopeful though that direct action will ultimately prevail because the ballot box no longer seems to offer up the options necessary to make things that are required happen.
God you talk some Nonsense. You yourself said "Baby Boomers enjoyed the most privileged and improved life ever". Now you're saying it's just in my own head.
They did. I'm not denying that. It doesn't make it a golden age - especially given the baby boomers are now currently, in this age, enjoying a retirement that future generations will be robbed of by them. For the baby boomers this is a golden age.

Early retirement, relative wealth and an ability to wreck it all for future generations never seen before.

Funny how these things work out.

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Re: Sajid Javid's Taxi Service.

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:02 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:55 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:42 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:31 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:09 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:11 pm

Golden age stuff is fantasy nonsense IMHO. Interestingly mainly peddled by Brexiteers. Larger class sizes in the early 60s, a generally poorer standard of education - though denying the working class a proper education seems to be a tick for many Brexit "the late 50s are our dream" brigade. Ironically the working class seem upset about working class kids going to Uni....Anyhow...probably best to agree to disagree.
Sounds decidedly like that's coming from someone who never had one! Lifetime itself isn't a total golden era; too much happens that's outside our control, but having a personal golden era is just that, "pesonal"..One man's meat etc. Me, I never really cared much about facts and figures, data and generalities. I've seen enough of the bad bits and climbed a few mountains, but I've also been too busy enjoying the better bits of it all not to have a golden era. Then again, I still expect Bolton to win every game and don't discount fairies or Santa Clause and was 18 when Harold Macmillan told us we'd never had it so good!" .... :lol:
Personal "golden era" is absolutely different.

Harking back to any era and saying "it was objectively better then" as LLS has done IMHO is a nonsense. Things change constantly. Somethings for the better some for the worse.

There is a huge amount of hope currently. We have a generation behind my own of people who see the world differently and who want to change it. I hope I manage to stay alive long enough to see if they manage it. The big issues like climate change that have been ignored for so long I believe will be tackled and I hope it isn't too late. What I'd like is for the current generation in power to realise they have a mantle to pass on - my deep, deep frustration is that our current leaders (and electorate) seem selfish to levels previously unheard of in this country. I remain hopeful though that direct action will ultimately prevail because the ballot box no longer seems to offer up the options necessary to make things that are required happen.
God you talk some Nonsense. You yourself said "Baby Boomers enjoyed the most privileged and improved life ever". Now you're saying it's just in my own head.
They did. I'm not denying that. It doesn't make it a golden age - especially given the baby boomers are now currently, in this age, enjoying a retirement that future generations will be robbed of by them. For the baby boomers this is a golden age.

Early retirement, relative wealth and an ability to wreck it all for future generations never seen before.

Funny how these things work out.
Do you know how spiteful you sound? Do you?.
My great-great-great grandfather died aged sixtytwo, having never retired. He spent his life providing for his family. His son retired aged seventy and saw the beginnings of s society that provided for the old. Now I'm benefitting from my forefather's efforts.
And you, you small minded ****, are whingeing about it!!!
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Re: Sajid Javid's Taxi Service.

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:13 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:02 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:55 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:42 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:31 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:09 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:11 pm

Golden age stuff is fantasy nonsense IMHO. Interestingly mainly peddled by Brexiteers. Larger class sizes in the early 60s, a generally poorer standard of education - though denying the working class a proper education seems to be a tick for many Brexit "the late 50s are our dream" brigade. Ironically the working class seem upset about working class kids going to Uni....Anyhow...probably best to agree to disagree.
Sounds decidedly like that's coming from someone who never had one! Lifetime itself isn't a total golden era; too much happens that's outside our control, but having a personal golden era is just that, "pesonal"..One man's meat etc. Me, I never really cared much about facts and figures, data and generalities. I've seen enough of the bad bits and climbed a few mountains, but I've also been too busy enjoying the better bits of it all not to have a golden era. Then again, I still expect Bolton to win every game and don't discount fairies or Santa Clause and was 18 when Harold Macmillan told us we'd never had it so good!" .... :lol:
Personal "golden era" is absolutely different.

Harking back to any era and saying "it was objectively better then" as LLS has done IMHO is a nonsense. Things change constantly. Somethings for the better some for the worse.

There is a huge amount of hope currently. We have a generation behind my own of people who see the world differently and who want to change it. I hope I manage to stay alive long enough to see if they manage it. The big issues like climate change that have been ignored for so long I believe will be tackled and I hope it isn't too late. What I'd like is for the current generation in power to realise they have a mantle to pass on - my deep, deep frustration is that our current leaders (and electorate) seem selfish to levels previously unheard of in this country. I remain hopeful though that direct action will ultimately prevail because the ballot box no longer seems to offer up the options necessary to make things that are required happen.
God you talk some Nonsense. You yourself said "Baby Boomers enjoyed the most privileged and improved life ever". Now you're saying it's just in my own head.
They did. I'm not denying that. It doesn't make it a golden age - especially given the baby boomers are now currently, in this age, enjoying a retirement that future generations will be robbed of by them. For the baby boomers this is a golden age.

Early retirement, relative wealth and an ability to wreck it all for future generations never seen before.

Funny how these things work out.
Do you know how spiteful you sound? Do you?.
My great-great-great grandfather died aged sixtytwo, having never retired. He spent his life providing for his family. His son retired aged seventy and saw the beginnings of s society that provided for the old. Now I'm benefitting from my forefather's efforts.
And you, you small minded ****, are whingeing about it!!!
I really honestly think that what you and the pathetic generation now 'so fxcking entitled' forget is that we have all strived to make the world a better place. The fact you are fxcking it up is more your fault than ours.
None of us are in power. I knew decades ago that climate change was happening - without me and like minded baby boomers you wouldn't even have the fxcking start of 'change'. Sometimes I think you think your lot invented Labour, Greenpeace, et fxcking al.
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Re: Sajid Javid's Taxi Service.

Post by TANGODANCER » Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:19 pm

Just occasionally, I wonder sometimes how the ancient Egyptians, Roman Empires and Constantine and co would feel seeing all their progress, old knowlege and unbelievable architectural triumphs etc, wiped out by er, progress that can't build a block of flats to last fifty years and call demolition the big picture....yeah....on with it.
The wisest and the best of men, nay, the wisest and best of their actions, may be rendered ridiculous by a person whose first object in life is a joke...Darcy. Pride and Prejudice.

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Re: Sajid Javid's Taxi Service.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:28 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:13 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:02 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:55 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:42 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:31 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:09 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:11 pm

Golden age stuff is fantasy nonsense IMHO. Interestingly mainly peddled by Brexiteers. Larger class sizes in the early 60s, a generally poorer standard of education - though denying the working class a proper education seems to be a tick for many Brexit "the late 50s are our dream" brigade. Ironically the working class seem upset about working class kids going to Uni....Anyhow...probably best to agree to disagree.
Sounds decidedly like that's coming from someone who never had one! Lifetime itself isn't a total golden era; too much happens that's outside our control, but having a personal golden era is just that, "pesonal"..One man's meat etc. Me, I never really cared much about facts and figures, data and generalities. I've seen enough of the bad bits and climbed a few mountains, but I've also been too busy enjoying the better bits of it all not to have a golden era. Then again, I still expect Bolton to win every game and don't discount fairies or Santa Clause and was 18 when Harold Macmillan told us we'd never had it so good!" .... :lol:
Personal "golden era" is absolutely different.

Harking back to any era and saying "it was objectively better then" as LLS has done IMHO is a nonsense. Things change constantly. Somethings for the better some for the worse.

There is a huge amount of hope currently. We have a generation behind my own of people who see the world differently and who want to change it. I hope I manage to stay alive long enough to see if they manage it. The big issues like climate change that have been ignored for so long I believe will be tackled and I hope it isn't too late. What I'd like is for the current generation in power to realise they have a mantle to pass on - my deep, deep frustration is that our current leaders (and electorate) seem selfish to levels previously unheard of in this country. I remain hopeful though that direct action will ultimately prevail because the ballot box no longer seems to offer up the options necessary to make things that are required happen.
God you talk some Nonsense. You yourself said "Baby Boomers enjoyed the most privileged and improved life ever". Now you're saying it's just in my own head.
They did. I'm not denying that. It doesn't make it a golden age - especially given the baby boomers are now currently, in this age, enjoying a retirement that future generations will be robbed of by them. For the baby boomers this is a golden age.

Early retirement, relative wealth and an ability to wreck it all for future generations never seen before.

Funny how these things work out.
Do you know how spiteful you sound? Do you?.
My great-great-great grandfather died aged sixtytwo, having never retired. He spent his life providing for his family. His son retired aged seventy and saw the beginnings of s society that provided for the old. Now I'm benefitting from my forefather's efforts.
And you, you small minded ****, are whingeing about it!!!
I really honestly think that what you and the pathetic generation now 'so fxcking entitled' forget is that we have all strived to make the world a better place. The fact you are fxcking it up is more your fault than ours.
None of us are in power. I knew decades ago that climate change was happening - without me and like minded baby boomers you wouldn't even have the fxcking start of 'change'. Sometimes I think you think your lot invented Labour, Greenpeace, et fxcking al.
I'm generation X - so by definiton supposedly don't care!

You think I'm bitter - perhaps I am. I see and hear it daily. People ringing into talkshows - people born in the 50's/60's retiring soon or retired bemoaning education, bemoaning "millennials", demanding "their pensions are protected" but certainly not flinching when its pointed out how long their kids and grandkids will have to work for.

Then we have the wankers like Piers Morgan belittling vegans (of which I'm not) on an almost daily basis, entirely needlessly - and in a way that makes it clear it isn't an attack on a few moronic vegans but on an entire generation.

We have Brexit, something voted for by baby boomers in huge numbers (larger numbers than any other generation) taking away my kids rights to freely move and work across Europe in the future. A right that an overwhelming percentage of that generation wants to retain.

The baby boomers who think they fought for free love, rock and roll and "the times they are a changing" politics also were incredibly keen to impose austerity on the nation. And still are. So long as it doesn't affect their retirement.

I want to be cautious. This is hugely generalised. And I accept fully that point. But its hard to not see it in broad terms as the selfish generation, wanting their cake and eating it, whilst leaving a huge mess behind it. Climate change is a huge example (again as a generalisation and not wish to tar individuals) the politicians from this era have ignored cc and paid it mere lip service. Because they know they'll be dead before they have to worry about it. And their core vote has been happy and complicit in them doing so.

I'll say this - I've always believed that basically we are all in this together. That sections of society may have different views, may oppose each other, but the brilliant thing about Britain has always been that the differences were broadly reconcilable and things brought people together. I do not think the current gap between the generation after me and the one before me will ever be bridged. It is growing daily and the attempt (deliberate attempt) by certain notorious public figures to stoke the flames (and to me this seems relatively one sided - see the HUGE fuss about the very few gammon tweets vs the near constant diatribes about "snowflakes" "me, me me millenials" etc that is a flood from certain corners) means this is going to become an impossible divide to heal.

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Re: Sajid Javid's Taxi Service.

Post by TANGODANCER » Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:30 pm

^^
"We're all in this together" ...Insaney, you make me laugh, when I'm not crying that is. Our generation (what's left of it) protecting our pensions? Dear oh dear, Pensions? What fxxxxing pensions? Do you mean Familiy Allowance? ..gee, the luxury back then. Who could afford to put savings aside? There are thousands today who never do a day's work, draw all sorts of benefits and are far better off than we are from all our work. Oh, Keep in mind closing the pits down and all those communities left jobless and broke....1992 was that...29 years ago? I was approaching fifty by then. Did our era do that too?

I'm wondering what age group you fall in to talk about our "golden era" and not mean your own joie-de-vivre...? See it was all golden to us; we had dance, rock and roll, a once a week visit to Burnden out of the change in your pocket, the pub and a packet of cigs, and then the sixties hippy era where pensioners were anybody over thirty... All without a mobile phone, Sky package, fifty inch colour T.V contInental holidays or owning any car never mind a new one and thought we were in Heaven . .We moved on had our lives,our kids, earned our breaks and kept on dancing theough it all.( Gee, how many guys in their seventies get to dance on Blackpool Pier, at the last ever night of Bolton Palais and the hallowed turf of the Macron Stadium and all on National T.V.? Golden era...bring it on! :oyea: ) ..

Compare it all to today, and "protecting our pensions" is a joke fit for Comedy Store or somewhere. My tinters are forever rose coloured because I'm just grateful for it all. I want my kids and grandkids to feel the same. Be glad to be alive and thank God for it. Can you say the same?
The wisest and the best of men, nay, the wisest and best of their actions, may be rendered ridiculous by a person whose first object in life is a joke...Darcy. Pride and Prejudice.

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Re: Sajid Javid's Taxi Service.

Post by Hoboh » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:50 am

Oh dear Bwfci you blame the older generation for all the crime on the streets do You?
You blame the older generation for all the PC nonsense that ties the hands of the police and the courts to tackle it do You?
You reckon there have always been so many trans gender persons it's not just trendy and that's the older generation at fault again?
Brexit means no one can travel or work in Europe and that's the fault of the older generation then not like no one ever did before the Soviet EU arrived?
You are right about one thing though too many young ones are far to entitled now.

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Re: Sajid Javid's Taxi Service.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:23 am

Hoboh wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:50 am
Oh dear Bwfci you blame the older generation for all the crime on the streets do You?
You blame the older generation for all the PC nonsense that ties the hands of the police and the courts to tackle it do You?
You reckon there have always been so many trans gender persons it's not just trendy and that's the older generation at fault again?
Brexit means no one can travel or work in Europe and that's the fault of the older generation then not like no one ever did before the Soviet EU arrived?
You are right about one thing though too many young ones are far to entitled now.
If ever I wanted an example to exemplify my post two up....well thanks you've just precisely proven my point.

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Re: Sajid Javid's Taxi Service.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:27 am

TANGODANCER wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:30 pm
^^
"We're all in this together" ...Insaney, you make me laugh, when I'm not crying that is. Our generation (what's left of it) protecting our pensions? Dear oh dear, Pensions? What fxxxxing pensions? Do you mean Familiy Allowance? ..gee, the luxury back then. Who could afford to put savings aside? There are thousands today who never do a day's work, draw all sorts of benefits and are far better off than we are from all our work. Oh, Keep in mind closing the pits down and all those communities left jobless and broke....1992 was that...29 years ago? I was approaching fifty by then. Did our era do that too?

I'm wondering what age group you fall in to talk about our "golden era" and not mean your own joie-de-vivre...? See it was all golden to us; we had dance, rock and roll, a once a week visit to Burnden out of the change in your pocket, the pub and a packet of cigs, and then the sixties hippy era where pensioners were anybody over thirty... All without a mobile phone, Sky package, fifty inch colour T.V contInental holidays or owning any car never mind a new one and thought we were in Heaven . .We moved on had our lives,our kids, earned our breaks and kept on dancing theough it all.( Gee, how many guys in their seventies get to dance on Blackpool Pier, at the last ever night of Bolton Palais and the hallowed turf of the Macron Stadium and all on National T.V.? Golden era...bring it on! :oyea: ) ..

Compare it all to today, and "protecting our pensions" is a joke fit for Comedy Store or somewhere. My tinters are forever rose coloured because I'm just grateful for it all. I want my kids and grandkids to feel the same. Be glad to be alive and thank God for it. Can you say the same?
You don't seem to get it. People born in the 90s will at your age either be working, or dead, in the main. They won't be able to retire.

By the way - who do you think enabled the pit closures and wrecking of communities by voting for Thatcher for 11 years - it certainly wasn't my generation or the millenials that followed me. Don't take it personally - for one you aren't even in the generation I'm describing. And two its wild generalisation.

But the attitude Hoboh has displayed in the post above is exactly what I'm talking about.

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Re: Sajid Javid's Taxi Service.

Post by Hoboh » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:21 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:27 am
TANGODANCER wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:30 pm
^^
"We're all in this together" ...Insaney, you make me laugh, when I'm not crying that is. Our generation (what's left of it) protecting our pensions? Dear oh dear, Pensions? What fxxxxing pensions? Do you mean Familiy Allowance? ..gee, the luxury back then. Who could afford to put savings aside? There are thousands today who never do a day's work, draw all sorts of benefits and are far better off than we are from all our work. Oh, Keep in mind closing the pits down and all those communities left jobless and broke....1992 was that...29 years ago? I was approaching fifty by then. Did our era do that too?

I'm wondering what age group you fall in to talk about our "golden era" and not mean your own joie-de-vivre...? See it was all golden to us; we had dance, rock and roll, a once a week visit to Burnden out of the change in your pocket, the pub and a packet of cigs, and then the sixties hippy era where pensioners were anybody over thirty... All without a mobile phone, Sky package, fifty inch colour T.V contInental holidays or owning any car never mind a new one and thought we were in Heaven . .We moved on had our lives,our kids, earned our breaks and kept on dancing theough it all.( Gee, how many guys in their seventies get to dance on Blackpool Pier, at the last ever night of Bolton Palais and the hallowed turf of the Macron Stadium and all on National T.V.? Golden era...bring it on! :oyea: ) ..

Compare it all to today, and "protecting our pensions" is a joke fit for Comedy Store or somewhere. My tinters are forever rose coloured because I'm just grateful for it all. I want my kids and grandkids to feel the same. Be glad to be alive and thank God for it. Can you say the same?
You don't seem to get it. People born in the 90s will at your age either be working, or dead, in the main. They won't be able to retire.

By the way - who do you think enabled the pit closures and wrecking of communities by voting for Thatcher for 11 years - it certainly wasn't my generation or the millenials that followed me. Don't take it personally - for one you aren't even in the generation I'm describing. And two its wild generalisation.

But the attitude Hoboh has displayed in the post above is exactly what I'm talking about.
You know, I kind of find it really strange that it was all the youth that started off this generation nonsense blaming the older generation for Brexit and all their ills and woes, a point you seem happy to gloss over.
One large problem is the way they can be so easily led up the garden path, remember Corbyn and his tuition fee lies before the last election to gather their votes? The EU and the job situation springs readily to mind, remind me of the youth unemployment in Spain, Italy, France etc. someone is spinning them another yarn. The way they accept as gospel what appears on twitter and Facebook, elevate that pathetic woman Katie Price and others to superstar levels, change or completely ignore history to suit, I could go on.
Maybe it's about time they listen for a change and realise some of us have been there, done that and learned and the most important thing is give something away you'll never get it back!

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Re: Sajid Javid's Taxi Service.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:44 am

Hoboh wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:21 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:27 am
TANGODANCER wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:30 pm
^^
"We're all in this together" ...Insaney, you make me laugh, when I'm not crying that is. Our generation (what's left of it) protecting our pensions? Dear oh dear, Pensions? What fxxxxing pensions? Do you mean Familiy Allowance? ..gee, the luxury back then. Who could afford to put savings aside? There are thousands today who never do a day's work, draw all sorts of benefits and are far better off than we are from all our work. Oh, Keep in mind closing the pits down and all those communities left jobless and broke....1992 was that...29 years ago? I was approaching fifty by then. Did our era do that too?

I'm wondering what age group you fall in to talk about our "golden era" and not mean your own joie-de-vivre...? See it was all golden to us; we had dance, rock and roll, a once a week visit to Burnden out of the change in your pocket, the pub and a packet of cigs, and then the sixties hippy era where pensioners were anybody over thirty... All without a mobile phone, Sky package, fifty inch colour T.V contInental holidays or owning any car never mind a new one and thought we were in Heaven . .We moved on had our lives,our kids, earned our breaks and kept on dancing theough it all.( Gee, how many guys in their seventies get to dance on Blackpool Pier, at the last ever night of Bolton Palais and the hallowed turf of the Macron Stadium and all on National T.V.? Golden era...bring it on! :oyea: ) ..

Compare it all to today, and "protecting our pensions" is a joke fit for Comedy Store or somewhere. My tinters are forever rose coloured because I'm just grateful for it all. I want my kids and grandkids to feel the same. Be glad to be alive and thank God for it. Can you say the same?
You don't seem to get it. People born in the 90s will at your age either be working, or dead, in the main. They won't be able to retire.

By the way - who do you think enabled the pit closures and wrecking of communities by voting for Thatcher for 11 years - it certainly wasn't my generation or the millenials that followed me. Don't take it personally - for one you aren't even in the generation I'm describing. And two its wild generalisation.

But the attitude Hoboh has displayed in the post above is exactly what I'm talking about.
You know, I kind of find it really strange that it was all the youth that started off this generation nonsense blaming the older generation for Brexit and all their ills and woes, a point you seem happy to gloss over.
One large problem is the way they can be so easily led up the garden path, remember Corbyn and his tuition fee lies before the last election to gather their votes? The EU and the job situation springs readily to mind, remind me of the youth unemployment in Spain, Italy, France etc. someone is spinning them another yarn. The way they accept as gospel what appears on twitter and Facebook, elevate that pathetic woman Katie Price and others to superstar levels, change or completely ignore history to suit, I could go on.
Maybe it's about time they listen for a change and realise some of us have been there, done that and learned and the most important thing is give something away you'll never get it back!
Brexit has been revealed to be everything the likes of Clegg, Blair et al warned it would be. A complete and utterly miserable clusterfuck. The Brexiteers prominent in the campaign have been exposed as impotent angry little men with no plan and no clue. Just constant, constant bleating and whining.

Yet you accuse 20 somethings of being "led up the garden path". How ironic. How utterly ironic.

I think, what they might be a bit (and rightfully annoyed by) is a decision that takes their rights away has been predominantly made by a group of people who enjoyed those rights for the majority or entirety of their working lives, who benefitted from the improved economy following our joining of the EEC. I guess that they might be a bit peeved that even ardent Brexiteers like Rees Mogg are predicting "a decade or more of economic pain". It won't bother him though, or many who voted for it. LLS on this very website, has said he doesn't care about the economic downturn that even he seems to accept to some extent will occur. But the millenials that you so despise are the people who will suffer through that and have to come out the other side and somehow try to fix the situation. Or make the best of it. My kids will be the ones who potentially end up suffering most. And whilst it was ever thus, this time it feels like there is real, and genuine malice. And let me tell you, it is predominantly one way. You will always have the odd scruffy student shouting the odds. However, rarely have I ever seen so many angry soon to retire men, like you, berating people simply for shits and giggles. When its pointed out, you continue to do so with even more relish it seems.

When you're dead they'll be trying to pick the pieces up. To fix our broken society and planet if that is what it comes to. Some humility and acknolwedgement of that would go a long way.

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