European Second Referendum

[Enoch]

Viva la coalition.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Viva la coalition.

Indeed. Nick Clegg, the Paragon of Democracy: Liberte, egalite, fraternite! (I hear the cry of the masses which founded the First Republic. Which ended with the First Consul declaring the First Empire - so much for European continental superiority of coalition, negotiation and consensus over the Mother of Parliaments. Or were thinking of Bismarck!?)

[Hoboh]

One thing that we do spectacularly badly in this country compared to a lot of European states is government by coalition, negotiation and consensus. We allow our partisan system to dictate everything. And what we're seeing now is the re sult of that system not being fit for purpose when issues like this divide it, especially when there is no overall majority.

Do you know who holds the record for a Sovereign Parliament in legislative deadlock? Belgium (capital, Brussels) - 589 days when they couldn't even agree who should be in Parliament, never mind in government.

(Technical note: now overtaken by the Northern Irish Assembly {which isn't a Sovereign Parliament}).

Do you know who holds the record for the most days without legislature whilst holding a legitimate parliament and government?

No? Italy, 467 days.
Do you know who holds the record for the number of parliaments in a decade?...

Do I need to go on??? In your case, probably yes, but I really can't be arsed...

You can find bad examples of any system.

I suggest if you seriously want to discuss this you familiarise yourself with the work of Lijphart who has spent most of his adult life studying these systems.

If I seriously want to discuss this?
You seriously implying that Lijphart says that Belgium, his own country, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Austria, etc have a more stable system of government than the UK because we don't have coalition, negotiation and consensus and they do???

Some people want a coalition government as long as it favours the PC and wet behind the ears liberal types Spots otherwise they would need a recount, new election or a referendum till they got it.

[BWFC_Insane]

One thing that we do spectacularly badly in this country compared to a lot of European states is government by coalition, negotiation and consensus. We allow our partisan system to dictate everything. And what we're seeing now is the re sult of that system not being fit for purpose when issues like this divide it, especially when there is no overall majority.

Do you know who holds the record for a Sovereign Parliament in legislative deadlock? Belgium (capital, Brussels) - 589 days when they couldn't even agree who should be in Parliament, never mind in government.

(Technical note: now overtaken by the Northern Irish Assembly {which isn't a Sovereign Parliament}).

Do you know who holds the record for the most days without legislature whilst holding a legitimate parliament and government?

No? Italy, 467 days.
Do you know who holds the record for the number of parliaments in a decade?...

Do I need to go on??? In your case, probably yes, but I really can't be arsed...

You can find bad examples of any system.

I suggest if you seriously want to discuss this you familiarise yourself with the work of Lijphart who has spent most of his adult life studying these systems.

If I seriously want to discuss this?
You seriously implying that Lijphart says that Belgium, his own country, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Austria, etc have a more stable system of government than the UK because we don't have coalition, negotiation and consensus and they do???

Some people want a coalition government as long as it favours the PC and wet behind the ears liberal types Spots otherwise they would need a recount, new election or a referendum till they got it.

Being serious here....PR and consensus coalition government (if necessary) would favour Brexiteers, because you would have parties in the parliament that represented your views.

If anything it would be far more advantageous to someone wanting Brexit. But it would potentially mean we aren’t in the current mess we are in.

Think about the current system where many people have a binary choice between two main parties. They can vote a different way if they want to throw their vote away. Lib Dem’s, Greens and UKIP all might receive a higher proportion of the vote if we had PR were prepared to ditch the two party system we effectively currently operate.

[Hoboh]

No offence BWFCi but who the hell would want the current UKIP party to have seats or anymore Greens? The Greens in Germany are partly responsible for the Germans funding Russian re-armament buy having to purchase their gas.

[BWFC_Insane]

No offence BWFCi but who the hell would want the current UKIP party to have seats or anymore Greens? The Greens in Germany are partly responsible for the Germans funding Russian re-armament buy having to purchase their gas.

I meant UKIP of the past would have seats now. As for the greens we are talking UK here. But my point is that currently one major issue is that no party in Westminster supports a version of Brexit you want. Not one. Officially. And were a ‘hard brexit’ Party to emerge one that could in theory get support from Brexit voters in our system it would be virtually impossible for them to make an impact.

The danger of PR and coalition is you let extremist parties in the mix. However, that might be a good thing as it might stop people feeling debate was supressed. Whatever side of Brexit you sit on, our current government and the Pm specifically have acted disgracefully through the process. Trying to restrict votes, and suppress dissenting views. Then trying to conceal information. It is a function of our system and a function of what I think is a system that is currently failing us massively.

[Hoboh]

No offence BWFCi but who the hell would want the current UKIP party to have seats or anymore Greens? The Greens in Germany are partly responsible for the Germans funding Russian re-armament buy having to purchase their gas.

I meant UKIP of the past would have seats now. As for the greens we are talking UK here. But my point is that currently one major issue is that no party in Westminster supports a version of Brexit you want. Not one. Officially. And were a ‘hard brexit’ Party to emerge one that could in theory get support from Brexit voters in our system it would be virtually impossible for them to make an impact.

The danger of PR and coalition is you let extremist parties in the mix. However, that might be a good thing as it might stop people feeling debate was supressed. Whatever side of Brexit you sit on, our current government and the Pm specifically have acted disgracefully through the process. Trying to restrict votes, and suppress dissenting views. Then trying to conceal information. It is a function of our system and a function of what I think is a system that is currently failing us massively.

But my point is that currently one major issue is that no party in Westminster supports a version of Brexit you want.

And what kind of Brexit do you think I want?
There always had to be some deal but because of May and her dithering we are faced with totally a non deal as a Brexit option, a no deal might just concentrate a few minds.

Trying to restrict votes, and suppress dissenting views.

That's rubbish and you know it, why is Hammond still there, Rudd back in the cabinet, etc.

Then trying to conceal information

Oh I agree there but all governments are guilty of this even the much beloved Blair/Brown mob.

In the past I have supported a version of PR but seeing the mess it leaves in some cases I am now not too sure about it.

[TANGODANCER]

^^

How come you're not Prime Minister, Insaney? ...or at least an M.P....I mean, to quote your own examples, are you advocating what is right over what you personally want...and how do you know what is right when Parliament and the P.M don't ?

I don't really understand that. They know what is "right" in their opinion.

Now I'm the confused one here. Should that read "They think"they know? See, I 'm listening to opinions on here (contrary at best) but giving credit to what people are saying with various factors all claiming they know what's right and wrong (there wouldn't be argument otherwise) when power, wealth and everybody furthering their own ends exists as a total reality in any government ever since the first kick-off.. Go back in history and find me a time when all the people were happy with government and the rulers weren't as bent as a slinky( Far from the Madding Crowd, workers singing happily in the fields and all that stuff not allowed, it's fiction)

One of the main reasons I have no real interest in politics is it's such a never-ending-story/rat-race of personal interest from those claiming to be leaders in the public benefit, nothing really getting resolved (mainly due to progress, marketing, technology etc moving at mach speed) and then the four yearly okey-cokey where we vote in yet another team to have a go, and before they even warm their seats the "opposition" nay-sayers are up in arms howling dissent. It's pretty obvious that as long as the government and Parliament continue to bang heads, what we really need is a total sovereign who really does have the last word. The chances of that happening are as unlikely as the silver cabinets at the University of Bolton Stadium containing the League Cup, The European Cup, the UEFA Cup and the Premiership Trophy. The ones that try it usually end up with a Pol Pot, a Peron, Sadam Hussein,that funny fellow from Korea or a new Napoleon. We get the David Camerons who pack it in and go on holiday.

In short, time marches on and the only one who ever had it about right was Robin Hood and you can go back to The Bible without finding as many wrongs as rights in it all. History is my reason for not being interested in politics, but keep trying chaps.

[Hoboh]

^^

How come you're not Prime Minister, Insaney? ...or at least an M.P....I mean, to quote your own examples, are you advocating what is right over what you personally want...and how do you know what is right when Parliament and the P.M don't ?

I don't really understand that. They know what is "right" in their opinion.

Now I'm the confused one here. Should that read "They think"they know? See, I 'm listening to opinions on here (contrary at best) but giving credit to what people are saying with various factors all claiming they know what's right and wrong (there wouldn't be argument otherwise) when power, wealth and everybody furthering their own ends exists as a total reality in any government ever since the first kick-off.. Go back in history and find me a time when all the people were happy with government and the rulers weren't as bent as a slinky( Far from the Madding Crowd, workers singing happily in the fields and all that stuff not allowed, it's fiction)

One of the main reasons I have no real interest in politics is it's such a never-ending-story/rat-race of personal interest from those claiming to be leaders in the public benefit, nothing really getting resolved (mainly due to progress, marketing, technology etc moving at mach speed) and then the four yearly okey-cokey where we vote in yet another team to have a go, and before they even warm their seats the "opposition" nay-sayers are up in arms howling dissent. It's pretty obvious that as long as the government and Parliament continue to bang heads, what we really need is a total sovereign who really does have the last word. The chances of that happening are as unlikely as the silver cabinets at the University of Bolton Stadium containing the League Cup, The European Cup, the UEFA Cup and the Premiership Trophy. The ones that try it usually end up with a Pol Pot, a Peron, Sadam Hussein,that funny fellow from Korea or a new Napoleon. We get the David Camerons who pack it in and go on holiday.

In short, time marches on and the only one who ever had it about right was Robin Hood and you can go back to The Bible without finding as many wrongs as rights in it all. History is my reason for not being interested in politics, but keep trying chaps.

Alas Tango there never usually is agreement about many things and if there is? There is usually a difference of how to get to that end point

[BWFC_Insane]

^^

How come you're not Prime Minister, Insaney? ...or at least an M.P....I mean, to quote your own examples, are you advocating what is right over what you personally want...and how do you know what is right when Parliament and the P.M don't ?

I don't really understand that. They know what is "right" in their opinion.

Now I'm the confused one here. Should that read "They think"they know? See, I 'm listening to opinions on here (contrary at best) but giving credit to what people are saying with various factors all claiming they know what's right and wrong (there wouldn't be argument otherwise) when power, wealth and everybody furthering their own ends exists as a total reality in any government ever since the first kick-off.. Go back in history and find me a time when all the people were happy with government and the rulers weren't as bent as a slinky( Far from the Madding Crowd, workers singing happily in the fields and all that stuff not allowed, it's fiction)

One of the main reasons I have no real interest in politics is it's such a never-ending-story/rat-race of personal interest from those claiming to be leaders in the public benefit, nothing really getting resolved (mainly due to progress, marketing, technology etc moving at mach speed) and then the four yearly okey-cokey where we vote in yet another team to have a go, and before they even warm their seats the "opposition" nay-sayers are up in arms howling dissent. It's pretty obvious that as long as the government and Parliament continue to bang heads, what we really need is a total sovereign who really does have the last word. The chances of that happening are as unlikely as the silver cabinets at the University of Bolton Stadium containing the League Cup, The European Cup, the UEFA Cup and the Premiership Trophy. The ones that try it usually end up with a Pol Pot, a Peron, Sadam Hussein,that funny fellow from Korea or a new Napoleon. We get the David Camerons who pack it in and go on holiday.

In short, time marches on and the only one who ever had it about right was Robin Hood and you can go back to The Bible without finding as many wrongs as rights in it all. History is my reason for not being interested in politics, but keep trying chaps.

Can I just point out that May was yesterday planning to use the referendum on the formation and devolution of powers to the Welsh assembly in her speech. She was going to say that was an example of a referendum of the people (of Wales) being acted upon, after they voted narrowly in favour of an assembly. She sent that speech with that example round to the press, as part of her bid to persuade MPs to vote for her deal in order to "carry out the will of the people from the referendum".

However, she had to delete those lines when someone pointed out that in Parliament she had in fact voted against the motion to devolve power to the Welsh assembly. So she hadn't been prepared to accept a referendum result then, but now she feels its morally wrong for someone to vote down her deal....

That for me is that issue. Our PM has been exposed as a complete hypocrite (even mistakenly trying to cite her own example) and cannot surely, be allowed to continue if she loses tonight - given she's had over 2 years to build consensus in the HoC for her deal.

Such a position highlights many things wrong with our system. I do think the "they're all as bad as each other" is a cop out. There are a very many great politicians on all sides. People who have values and are consistent in how they apply them. Sadly you mainly find those sorts currently on the backbenches in both major parties, but they are there. Brexit has exposed the faultlines in the major parties and shown that there are groups from each who could co-operate, especially on this issue. I do find it sad though that when backbench MPs from both sides have got together to try and find a way through this - a way that actually wouldn't topple the government - they've been branded "traitors, saboteurs, enemies of the people, plotters etc..." by our media.

People cannot have it both ways - either MPs work together to find a solution or they don't. It seems a lot of our press claim they want that, until it actually happens.

[Hoboh]

Boy do you really push the boundaries of reality at times, many good MP's? You are joking, there used to be many principled ones who genuinely stood up for their constituents and principles but those days are well gone.
Honourable back bench Mp's prepared to work cross party, Nicky fcuking Morgan et al? Oh please just call it a day.

[BWFC_Insane]

Boy do you really push the boundaries of reality at times, many good MP's? You are joking, there used to be many principled ones who genuinely stood up for their constituents and principles but those days are well gone.
Honourable back bench Mp's prepared to work cross party, Nicky fcuking Morgan et al? Oh please just call it a day.

Ultimately I respect politicians who can put their party differences to one side and work through this. Over the ones who just shout at each other across the house. That is my view.

I wouldn't name Morgan as being a great politician given she's going to vote for the deal tonight despite being opposed to it. That is the sort of weak party politics that gets us nowhere.

[Hoboh]

Boy do you really push the boundaries of reality at times, many good MP's? You are joking, there used to be many principled ones who genuinely stood up for their constituents and principles but those days are well gone.
Honourable back bench Mp's prepared to work cross party, Nicky fcuking Morgan et al? Oh please just call it a day.

Ultimately I respect politicians who can put their party differences to one side and work through this. Over the ones who just shout at each other across the house. That is my view.

I wouldn't name Morgan as being a great politician given she's going to vote for the deal tonight despite being opposed to it. That is the sort of weak party politics that gets us nowhere.

You see the problem with you is these Mp's who you respect are those who follow your tunnel vision of how the world should be and the impressionable youth are following your like.
When a certain generation of people die off how long before youth start branding Churchill as nothing more than an alcoholic warmongering old man?

[BWFC_Insane]

Boy do you really push the boundaries of reality at times, many good MP's? You are joking, there used to be many principled ones who genuinely stood up for their constituents and principles but those days are well gone.
Honourable back bench Mp's prepared to work cross party, Nicky fcuking Morgan et al? Oh please just call it a day.

Ultimately I respect politicians who can put their party differences to one side and work through this. Over the ones who just shout at each other across the house. That is my view.

I wouldn't name Morgan as being a great politician given she's going to vote for the deal tonight despite being opposed to it. That is the sort of weak party politics that gets us nowhere.

You see the problem with you is these Mp's who you respect are those who follow your tunnel vision of how the world should be and the impressionable youth are following your like.
When a certain generation of people die off how long before youth start branding Churchill as nothing more than an alcoholic warmongering old man?

I would say that is more the case with you tbh.

I fundamentally disagree with Raab - but I respect the fact he's had the courage of his conviction.

I fundamentally disagree with Soubry on most issues - but I resepect the fact she keeps stating her opinion in spite of abuse.

As for your Churchill remark - don't be ridiculous. Its another example of how you just dislike anyone who isn't you, doesn't share your views, doesn't subscribe to your particular view of the world. Its narrow minded.

I respect MPs who can come together and make something practical happen. Rather than just blindly following their parties like sheep.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Boy do you really push the boundaries of reality at times, many good MP's? You are joking, there used to be many principled ones who genuinely stood up for their constituents and principles but those days are well gone.
Honourable back bench Mp's prepared to work cross party, Nicky fcuking Morgan et al? Oh please just call it a day.

Ultimately I respect politicians who can put their party differences to one side and work through this. Over the ones who just shout at each other across the house. That is my view.

I wouldn't name Morgan as being a great politician given she's going to vote for the deal tonight despite being opposed to it. That is the sort of weak party politics that gets us nowhere.

You see the problem with you is these Mp's who you respect are those who follow your tunnel vision of how the world should be and the impressionable youth are following your like.
When a certain generation of people die off how long before youth start branding Churchill as nothing more than an alcoholic warmongering old man?

I would say that is more the case with you tbh.

I fundamentally disagree with Raab - but I respect the fact he's had the courage of his conviction.

I fundamentally disagree with Soubry on most issues - but I resepect the fact she keeps stating her opinion in spite of abuse.

As for your Churchill remark - don't be ridiculous. Its another example of how you just dislike anyone who isn't you, doesn't share your views, doesn't subscribe to your particular view of the world. Its narrow minded.

I respect MPs who can come together and make something practical happen. Rather than just blindly following their parties like sheep.

If the MPs had "followed their parties like sheep" we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place. 82.5% of the popular vote at the last election went to parties whose MPs have defied their stated manifestos.
If all Labour and Conservative MPs had unilaterally stopped fighting amongst themselves at that point, this country could have approached Brexit with unity and demanded, at the very least, that negotiations over free trade agreement proceeded alongside a withdrawal agreement.
What really pisses off true Brexiteers is that this deal of May's isn't a fxcking deal, it's a total cave in, driven by a PM who doesn't have a single clue as to what drove Brexit in the first place.

[Hoboh]

Boy do you really push the boundaries of reality at times, many good MP's? You are joking, there used to be many principled ones who genuinely stood up for their constituents and principles but those days are well gone.
Honourable back bench Mp's prepared to work cross party, Nicky fcuking Morgan et al? Oh please just call it a day.

Ultimately I respect politicians who can put their party differences to one side and work through this. Over the ones who just shout at each other across the house. That is my view.

I wouldn't name Morgan as being a great politician given she's going to vote for the deal tonight despite being opposed to it. That is the sort of weak party politics that gets us nowhere.

You see the problem with you is these Mp's who you respect are those who follow your tunnel vision of how the world should be and the impressionable youth are following your like.
When a certain generation of people die off how long before youth start branding Churchill as nothing more than an alcoholic warmongering old man?

I would say that is more the case with you tbh.

I fundamentally disagree with Raab - but I respect the fact he's had the courage of his conviction.

I fundamentally disagree with Soubry on most issues - but I resepect the fact she keeps stating her opinion in spite of abuse.

As for your Churchill remark - don't be ridiculous. Its another example of how you just dislike anyone who isn't you, doesn't share your views, doesn't subscribe to your particular view of the world. Its narrow minded.

I respect MPs who can come together and make something practical happen. Rather than just blindly following their parties like sheep.

You see you are so blinked you really have no idea, if Leave had lost the referendum I would have been a touch disgruntled but would I have been shouting for a peoples vote 2? No, because you see I would accept what the majority voted for, the reason I believe a referendum was due on membership was because the whole dammed game and rules had fundamentally changed.
I despised Tony Benn and Foot but they were men of principle the same as Skinner and are due respect for it, you think now there are good Mp's? So when a certain Bolton Mp spends as much time in certain overseas countries fighting for their rights as she does her own constituents, well.........
You should face facts politicians are self centred, self serving greedy swine.

[BWFC_Insane]

Boy do you really push the boundaries of reality at times, many good MP's? You are joking, there used to be many principled ones who genuinely stood up for their constituents and principles but those days are well gone.
Honourable back bench Mp's prepared to work cross party, Nicky fcuking Morgan et al? Oh please just call it a day.

Ultimately I respect politicians who can put their party differences to one side and work through this. Over the ones who just shout at each other across the house. That is my view.

I wouldn't name Morgan as being a great politician given she's going to vote for the deal tonight despite being opposed to it. That is the sort of weak party politics that gets us nowhere.

You see the problem with you is these Mp's who you respect are those who follow your tunnel vision of how the world should be and the impressionable youth are following your like.
When a certain generation of people die off how long before youth start branding Churchill as nothing more than an alcoholic warmongering old man?

I would say that is more the case with you tbh.

I fundamentally disagree with Raab - but I respect the fact he's had the courage of his conviction.

I fundamentally disagree with Soubry on most issues - but I resepect the fact she keeps stating her opinion in spite of abuse.

As for your Churchill remark - don't be ridiculous. Its another example of how you just dislike anyone who isn't you, doesn't share your views, doesn't subscribe to your particular view of the world. Its narrow minded.

I respect MPs who can come together and make something practical happen. Rather than just blindly following their parties like sheep.

You see you are so blinked you really have no idea, if Leave had lost the referendum I would have been a touch disgruntled but would I have been shouting for a peoples vote 2? No, because you see I would accept what the majority voted for, the reason I believe a referendum was due on membership was because the whole dammed game and rules had fundamentally changed.
I despised Tony Benn and Foot but they were men of principle the same as Skinner and are due respect for it, you think now there are good Mp's? So when a certain Bolton Mp spends as much time in certain overseas countries fighting for their rights as she does her own constituents, well.........
You should face facts politicians are self centred, self serving greedy swine.

See you're still in your little bubble waffling on about some perceived injustice......

You live in your own world and you cannot see beyond it. Said Bolton MP was on the Foreign Affairs Committee....I know that your world is insular and closed. But I want us to be outward looking, progressive, welcoming and a major player in the world.

[TANGODANCER]

This whole Brexit thing should start with "Once upon a time "..and end with "and they all lived happily ever after!"....except, despite it being "the will of the people" (what a Monty Python/Blackadder joke that is) it doesn't, can't, never will be. All the bits in between are written by dreamers and acted out by a cast of thousands who can't agree when it's raining, and overseen by directors and producers whose first priority is "me", plus expenses"..

It should all have been done and dusted, and it's still nowhere nearer than when we started.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

^
Some time tonight we will get a clearer picture of whether the electorate has been shafted with a very large political dildo, or are merely being lined up to be whacked over the head with a rubber cock.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Hilary Benn: "all of us are going to have to compromise..." - biggest pile of bullshit from a politician yet. Sometimes there are no 'compromises' - give me a compromise between Jews and Nazis (oooh, we'll just gas some of you!).