2024, hoodwink and bamboozle the public

[Worthy4England]

So when the PMs office and the Home Sec said about Leeds, that the perps should be dealt with by the full force of the law, we just ignore that bit?

Erm, I think you'll find they were talking about getting to the cause of the disturbance and working with the community, but that's besides the point. Tear gas, rubber bullets, water cannon and cosh should be used there and in the current situation, go in hard!
Oh and it seems from what I've seen on TV a certain group of people almost have a paramilitary dress code with hoods and masks, make that unlawful as well.

What you said and what you meant are not necessarily the same thing. You said PM hadn't mentioned anything about Leeds. I just responded that they had.

We should not be surprised, if people like Farage, Braverman, Robinson etc. keep feeding the troll, it'll eventually slip its bonds. This is their core demographic.

[Worthy4England]

You hang a murderer, he kills no one else.

Which would be ok if there weren't so many pretty obvious stitch ups, fallible DNA processing, co-ordinated circumstantial evidence ignoring bits that don't fit, conveniently "lost" evidence for re-tests and lack if full disclosure.

[TANGODANCER]

"Oh to be in England, now the summer's there, and whoever wakes in England finds some morning unaware, that the shops are all on fire and there's looting everywhere"...quoth the poet.

England 2024. Men in hoods and masks causing mayhem throughout the country (world) and we can't even blame the current government for that sort of lunacy or mentality. "Sins of the fathers"..etc. Something very drastic needs to happen and fast. Maybe even the rest of civilisation, that want a piece of the English pie, might have a change of heart /mind if we show some backbone and get our house in order.....maybe.. How? well that's another story the poets never thought much about..

[Prufrock]

I think the point was "to keep people locked up" - in your no crime scenario - they'd have to have more cells to keep them in - you can't have one without the other.

My point was actually to stop criminals offending by desire because incarceration is seen by them as somewhat a soft option with three square a day, exercise, T.V and availability of drugs etc.

But that’s not why people offend. Deterrence, no matter how harsh doesn’t seem to have a big impact on crime rates.
[/quote]
It's a bit more nuanced than that, and depends a lot on the type of crime, but yeah broadly.

There are several elements to sentencing, the most important being deterrence, rehabilitation, punishment and prevention.

There will be lots of people getting a knock on the door over the next few weeks finding out the system isn't as soft touch as they thought.

Starmer's "wishy washy human rights lawyer" depiction never landed and I think we'll see why. He was also DPP for the London riots and I expect a similar response this time.

Deterrence is largely (though not completely bogus). The punishment side (i.e. society being satisfied this has been dealt with) and prevention (i.e. they're locked up so can't commit crimes for that period) are both valid.

[Worthy4England]

We spent a happy 40 years being able to lay "the blame" for everything on the EU. Bit tougher to do that now, so "the blame" had to move. Not content with saying to the nation, a main plank of our growth is legal immigration, much easier to blame the much smaller "illegal" bit and not acknowledge that requesting asylum isn't illegal. So maybe if we stop the rhetoric around "blame," we could have a reasonable (doubt it) debate around whether the total number of net migrants is what we want/need as a country.

This isn't as straight fowards as it might first appear, because it'll include questions like:

Should we just let the care sector shrink, even though we need it to grow and say "tough shit." Likewise about the NHS.

Should we limit student visas (a significant element of visa approved migration), knowing we charge them more for their UK courses than UK students, they also rent accommodation etc? If so, by how much?

What happens for seasonal labour and the jobs our farmers need people to do, that our people generally don't want to do.

I think there does need to be a debate, rather than the rhetoric around how to answer those questions without just blaming "immigrants" as a catch-all.

They're not picking England's green and pleasant, particularly over any other country. Most countries are in a range of 10-20% population who weren't born there.

I'm happy for the answer to be "we don't need any immigration," but it's not as easy as just swithching off visas.

[Hoboh]

You hang a murderer, he kills no one else.

Which would be ok if there weren't so many pretty obvious stitch ups, fallible DNA processing, co-ordinated circumstantial evidence ignoring bits that don't fit, conveniently "lost" evidence for re-tests and lack if full disclosure.

Not that many now, far from it, interesting if you could name names on this long list of innocent, let's say, the last decade? Science is apparently so advanced they can predict he climate in the next 20 odd years but they fail on DNA and more and more CCTV? Sorry, I ain't having that.

[Worthy4England]

^^ Why should it need to be a long list? If yer offing them, then one's a lot.

[TANGODANCER]

"The Law" in principle, in it's purest sense, is the only thing that prevents us from being animals. "Do you swear to tell The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth" needs to be more than words, for criminals need only say "I do" to them for society to believe them genuine whilst lying through their teeth, which is as honest as criminals wearing a suit and tie instead of a mask and hoodie. ( there are exceptions of course") Is perjury itself not a punishable crime? yet who is ever punished from its usage? Some defence lawyers make a rich living by having us believe that they, themselves believe their "clients" are actually honest citizens that life has treated badly.

Step One on the road to recovery is surely making perjury feared and not a joke. Perhaps the "I do" element who internally scoff at it might hesitate if some of them found guilty have five years added to their sentences for being proven liars. Of course, the chance of it happening is as realistic as the day criminals found out that "My Briefs" didn't just mean their underpants.

Seriously, Is right now and current event, not a real opportunity to ring some legal changes and restore some faith in the Law. ?

[BWFC_Insane]

We spent a happy 40 years being able to lay "the blame" for everything on the EU. Bit tougher to do that now, so "the blame" had to move. Not content with saying to the nation, a main plank of our growth is legal immigration, much easier to blame the much smaller "illegal" bit and not acknowledge that requesting asylum isn't illegal. So maybe if we stop the rhetoric around "blame," we could have a reasonable (doubt it) debate around whether the total number of net migrants is what we want/need as a country.

This isn't as straight fowards as it might first appear, because it'll include questions like:

Should we just let the care sector shrink, even though we need it to grow and say "tough shit." Likewise about the NHS.

Should we limit student visas (a significant element of visa approved migration), knowing we charge them more for their UK courses than UK students, they also rent accommodation etc? If so, by how much?

What happens for seasonal labour and the jobs our farmers need people to do, that our people generally don't want to do.

I think there does need to be a debate, rather than the rhetoric around how to answer those questions without just blaming "immigrants" as a catch-all.

They're not picking England's green and pleasant, particularly over any other country. Most countries are in a range of 10-20% population who weren't born there.

I'm happy for the answer to be "we don't need any immigration," but it's not as easy as just swithching off visas.

I agree with all this. But it’s a bit hard to have a debate like this when we have full blown far right terrorists organising violence online and idiots carrying out their orders on the streets.

The problem and I will put it bluntly - the nuance of the debate goes above the head of those involved in rioting and disorder.

[Worthy4England]

The oath needs to apply equally to defence and prosecution. The prosecution if they manage "the truth" often have a problem with the second bit. "The whole truth," through limiting disclosure responses. In a different context than police, this is one of the main things we've just seen in the post office scandal.

In general, stuff probably works with a reasonable level of probability that the outcome is correct. I expect most folks found guilty are guilty.

If we're going to use capital punishment, chop hands off etc. then I'd want a whole host more certainty, no majority verdicts etc. (which is what Hobes was suggesting.)

[Prufrock]

If you want to make a rich life, criminal defence is absolutely not the way to do it!

It's basically a hobby now for rich kids. Most criminal briefs pay way below even the minimum wage now. Funding of the criminal justice system had been a disgrace. The public at large understandably aren't sympathetic to criminals, so they got away with it. But there are victims waiting years to see their cases come to trial and countless examples of e.g. witnesses turning up to give evidence and then the trial is postponed because there is no van to bring the prisoner to trail. Eventually people give up and criminals walk free. Another utterly fecked part of public services.

[TANGODANCER]

If you want to make a rich life, criminal defence is absolutely not the way to do it!

Believe it. You may note the "some" not all in my post applies. I may have forgot to mention my youngest daughter works for a defence law firm. Pay issue apart, being called out in the middle of the night and spending countless leisure hours in a police station don't help much.

[Prufrock]

Absolutely TD but the some is basically "none" this days. A couple of KCs who take on the celebs, and white collar stuff. Anyone else is making a bad decision if it's purely finances they're after (there are lots of other reasons to take a job).

[Hoboh]

Like I eluded to earlier, I have no time for rioters, no matter which side they supposedly represent, but anyone who thinks this is merely those on the right who carry out these things or represents danger is deluded.
I spend quite a lot of time in a certain area of Manchester, where it seems all schools and kindergartens require the use of security guards, these people are not worried about the right wing.
Integration in the UK is failing on a large scale, too many see everything as supporting one side or another whilst ignoring the fact all should follow UK law and order without the need for sleazy lawyers twisting any excuse under the sun to defend any actions taken that clearly breach the law.
I see already there are claims the Southport stabber suffers from ADHD.
I totally back any government that takes on the nutters.

[Worthy4England]

I understand, that after winding up this section of the electorate for quite a few years now, giving everyone they didn't like, perjorative school yard badges, some people might be looking to distance themselves - but what did they think would happen? This is right wing shit. You've already pointed out every leftie, commie, wokie protest - sometimes at length.

I doubt you'll get much disagreement, that all should follow the law (obviously if we did there would be little need for lawyers, sleazy or otherwise).

I mean we could maybe try and change the balance of where our immigrants come from - for those that we need - we could maybe get some white, Christians from the EU - Oh.

[Hoboh]

I understand, that after winding up this section of the electorate for quite a few years now, giving everyone they didn't like, perjorative school yard badges, some people might be looking to distance themselves - but what did they think would happen? This is right wing shit. You've already pointed out every leftie, commie, wokie protest - sometimes at length.

I doubt you'll get much disagreement, that all should follow the law (obviously if we did there would be little need for lawyers, sleazy or otherwise).

I mean we could maybe try and change the balance of where our immigrants come from - for those that we need - we could maybe get some white, Christians from the EU - Oh.

You really should stop sucking lemons mate, you really should

[Worthy4England]

Just pointing to the level of joined up thinking going on from the moan, moan, moan, club.

[TANGODANCER]

In Defence's claim their client was of previous good behaviour and character, when accused of smashing up a police van, , " quote. Bolton News" ....In response, District Judge xxxxx asked Ms xxxxx “why did he attend a mass demonstration wearing a pink balaclava,” to which the defence lawyer responded she was not sure....If this weren't so serious, it would be the stuff of pantomime..

[Hoboh]

Just pointing to the level of joined up thinking going on from the moan, moan, moan, club.

If opinions get you membership to the moan, moan, moan club Worthy, you should definitely be the chairman
I'm all for a fair society, but the biggest missing piece is the ever increasing absence of the key word, responsibility. We are ever living in a world where this is diminishing year on year, you don't need to be a genius to work out that a rapid increase of 10 million in population is unsustainable and unaffordable.
On the other side of the coin, about the cost of housing, living for the youth of today, if you decide to move and you get a valuation of say 350, 400 thou on your house, are you going to flog it for say, 100 because that's affordable? Thought not, there lies the conundrum all face, including the left leaning among us. We are pricing out the youth and as per, pass the blame for it on to others.
From what I glean from your posts, you have a very generous salary working for a multinational company that might fall apart without your pet hate, capitalism, your pet moan, moan, moan and you want to rejoin a group that would, given half a chance, over regulate and dictate more of your life?
Yep, chairman, rock on

[Worthy4England]

I suspect I'd be a long way short on your credentials for Chairman, Hobes. Where to start with this blurb. Maybe at the top and work through.

The population increase. We've grown by 10 million in 24 years, whereas the previous 10 million took around 50. So yes a big increase in a short space of time. The bit that I think you're wrong on is the unaffordable bit. It's one of the three ways we show GDP growth - throwing more bodies in, it's not unaffordable, it's a necessity of our current economic model. We might in the future be as large as China, which is going to be a bit cramped. Point is, whether we agree on causes and effects, there is a reasonable conversation to have around at what point we say "we're full" - regardless of ethnic composition. In general outside of internet chatter, the general view is that in the main, immigration adds more to GDP than it takes out. Sure there are cases where it does, they're usually the ones that the RWM cite, with little understanding of any notion of potential economic impacts. Maybe put some of your genius thinking in that direction, and tell us how you're going to staff-up rising health people requirements, what you're replacing the student sector with, etc.

So moving onto point 2, which is in part linked, more people need more housing and the problem of affordability. Wage growth has been pretty stagnant and broadly negative for about as long as I can recall. At the same time company profits continue to increase at a much more healthy rate and commodity costs have increased. The cost (not price) to build a house has increase dramatically as have land values and as noted, company profits in the building sector. It's hardly surprising then, that house prices rise. There isn't a great link between supply and demand at any sort of level the market would deliver that'll make any significant impact. So we have the problem of affordability being the main issue. Stagnant wages, increasing asset value of the property. The problem is not why we aren't building enough, there are plenty of people buying more than one, foreign investment and pension funds who will buy a housing asset as something that will increase in value. This problem is crystal clear all over the housing market. Very few can build a property that the young ones can afford. I've posted on this topic before, so I think we're agreed it's a big problem. Why you think someone left or right of the political spectrum should give away their assets, is more RWM bullshit. It does you no credit. For me the answer would be to try and deliver more not-for-profit, state housing, if necessary CPOing some land to build it on. This would help minimise the cost as a rough metric is the costs of a property are about 1/3 Land, Build, Profit.

As to me and what I do, you may glean what you will. I can only assume you're that dumb, that you deliberately miss all the posts I've made suggesting capitalism isn't generally working, what we need is better capitalism. We know if we just operate free markets then the only economics in play is bubble-up, not trickle down and that unregulated markets (or lightly regulated) cause issues like the global financial crash of 2008 that Mr and Mrs Taxpayer bailed out.

I've never said anywhere I want to rejoin the EU, ever, as far as I can recall, but again here, your MO is to try and put everyone into a little box that has a name badge attached, it helps you get through the day and I'm fine with that mate - it's like you might give someone with ADHD a bit of therapy, so happy to do my part and help you out. I think there is little point saying to a larger trading partner, that we will accept none of your market-wide rules, you're going to play on our terms, Johnny Foreigner. Similarly doing a "Singapore on Thames" isn't going to help most working people, just the few at the top.

Maybe we could hear some of your proposals on the same topics as to how you're going to solve them?