Division Three, 2024/25

[GhostoftheBok]

Lot of words to say "we didn't achieve our objective." We failed would have covered it.

No, we didn't and as I said after the final, if he'd have walked I'd have been find with it.

Prior to that season he was overachieving against my "average", which I what I expect from a good manager. Last season he was just below.

This season he has got to go up.

I do feel people sometimes read me as being heavily invested in Evatt. I'm not. I don't like him and I'll back him so long as I think he's out best chance of going up. I'll let you know 15 games in if I'm still there.

[BWFC_Insane]

Lot of words to say "we didn't achieve our objective." We failed would have covered it.

No, we didn't and as I said after the final, if he'd have walked I'd have been find with it.

Prior to that season he was overachieving against my "average", which I what I expect from a good manager. Last season he was just below.

This season he has got to go up.

I do feel people sometimes read me as being heavily invested in Evatt. I'm not. I don't like him and I'll back him so long as I think he's out best chance of going up. I'll let you know 15 games in if I'm still there.

I don’t think you are heavily invested in Evatt.

But I do think you don’t want to admit that we need to be much more pragmatic to give ourselves the best chance to get out of this league. Allardyce said it a couple of years ago that the whole ‘playing out from the back’ thing was bollocks for most teams. He is bang on in my view. It’s fine trying to play like this if you can and be successful. But the way we play is ultimately what holds us back. Our best performance second half of last season was Barnsley away in the play offs. Where we simply went more direct, abandoned trying to play through them and grafted. But I don’t think Evatt’s ego allows us to be that. But until we are that I don’t think we will get up.

[GhostoftheBok]

But I do think you don’t want to admit that we need to be much more pragmatic to give ourselves the best chance to get out of this league.

I think I've said before that if I'd got to pick after Owen got relegated I'd have had Dyche in.

I am fine with pragmatic, direct football. I just don't think it'll happen here again for a long time.

All I care about is winning. I agree with Ian (and disagree with Sam) that the style we are currently playing is proven to be the most effective. I've spoken to Sam about this in the past and I've got plenty of respect for him - I just don't agree.

This is a really complicated discussion and cost/benefit analysis isn't clear (ie, Are we sacrificing a season or two at this level to implement this? Can we afford that lost revenue? All that jazz.), but if you want to play this way (which is the most effective way of playing historically, across all leagues in Europe) you have to have it right through the club as a permanent culture. You can't turn it on and off. We cant go direct now and then become Ajax later. We'll almost certainly be relegated.

From the kids to the senior squad, it has to be how it is.

I don't see this as "Well, we've not hit our target this one year so we'd best try direct football." This is now how Bolton Wanderers teams play and the the change will be how it's coached, not the general approach.

I'm fine with people preferring another way to play and it doesn't have to be hoofball. However, the club has chosen this approach and will live or die by it. I'm fine with that and it's generally been working for us. My focus is on making it work, because I don't think it is changing.

Last season we didn't go up and we should have. This season it may cost Evatt his job. The new guy will probably play the same style of football, though. If Evatt doesn't go up then hopefully the next guy does the job better.

Same job, though.

[BWFC_Insane]

But I do think you don’t want to admit that we need to be much more pragmatic to give ourselves the best chance to get out of this league.

I think I've said before that if I'd got to pick after Owen got relegated I'd have had Dyche in.

I am fine with pragmatic, direct football. I just don't think it'll happen here again for a long time.

All I care about is winning. I agree with Ian (and disagree with Sam) that the style we are currently playing is proven to be the most effective. I've spoken to Sam about this in the past and I've got plenty of respect for him - I just don't agree.

This is a really complicated discussion and cost/benefit analysis isn't clear (ie, Are we sacrificing a season or two at this level to implement this? Can we afford that lost revenue? All that jazz.), but if you want to play this way (which is the most effective way of playing historically, across all leagues in Europe) you have to have it right through the club as a permanent culture. You can't turn it on and off. We cant go direct now and then become Ajax later. We'll almost certainly be relegated.

From the kids to the senior squad, it has to be how it is.

I don't see this as "Well, we've not hit our target this one year so we'd best try direct football." This is now how Bolton Wanderers teams play and the the change will be how it's coached, not the general approach.

I'm fine with people preferring another way to play and it doesn't have to be hoofball. However, the club has chosen this approach and will live or die by it. I'm fine with that and it's generally been working for us. My focus is on making it work, because I don't think it is changing.

Last season we didn't go up and we should have. This season it may cost Evatt his job. The new guy will probably play the same style of football, though. If Evatt doesn't go up then hopefully the next guy does the job better.

Same job, though.

Where I take massive issue is the idea that this style of football is the only way to be successful. I think it’s a huge ego trip for Evatt. He clearly came here thinking he’d be the next big star manager. Premiership in 5 years was mentioned. Because he’d done well at Barrow. And you know you could as a manager do amazing things at Bolton, Parky did, but get nowhere further in your career because you didn’t ’do It the right way’. We all know that if you want to break through somewhere as a top flight manager now your football needs a certain image. Even though the reality is that actually few premiership teams in reality are playing exactly like we do. Most who stay up against the odds adopt a more pragmatic brand…and I don’t prefer any style or way of playing I just think we are making it impossible for ourselves by slavishly playing a style that we can’t, when the biggest tests come round consistently win games with. We can beat poor sides. We can beat sides we are better than. We even occasionally beat our equals but the record is clearly not enough.

Evatt says you can’t stay up unless you play this way. It’s a nonsense. If Allardyce rocked up here as manager he’d take us up and keep us up. And wouldn’t be like this. Parky did it, not like this. Warnock would do it. Dyche would do it. Jones would do it.

I do think it’s incredibly hard to stay up in the championship but just because we play out from the back isn't going to significantly change it, in fact I think the opposite. Better teams will reduce our possession and we will find quickly that we will need to be much more compact than we are now in most games which will mean a significantly more pragmatic approach is required.

And I think there is a much bigger divide in how we play vs say ‘direct long ball football’. First half of that Parky season we played nice stuff with Clough, Ameobi and Vela. That football in glimpses was way better than we produce now. We also scored a lot from set pieces and could be very hard to play when we need d to be. It got a bit more basic when Sami and Zach went. But those two were far more exciting to watch in that team than any players we have now. Far more.

[GhostoftheBok]

To be clear and to avoid any doubt - Evatt's way is not the only way to be successful. Nothing like.

It's the most consistent return on investment.

There are really successful clubs that play radically differently; but this is the one where if you implement it a clubs are most likely to consistently improve.

The difficulty comes from the club's ambition to play this way. That's the end vision, a club which plays this way and develops players that play this way - so they can be sold to elite clubs who mostly play this way.

We could be a bit more Brentford or Luton and a bit less Brighton, but the transition is killer - as we found out in League Two. Getting this started wrecks teams. Once it's the culture you can adjust far more easily.

You absolutely CAN go up the leagues playing different styles (though less so the ol' Wycombe hoof, that's almost always cooked a level up).

[Worthy4England]

Sorry for the brevity, how much ROI do we have?

[BWFC_Insane]

To be clear and to avoid any doubt - Evatt's way is not the only way to be successful. Nothing like.

It's the most consistent return on investment.

There are really successful clubs that play radically differently; but this is the one where if you implement it a clubs are most likely to consistently improve.

The difficulty comes from the club's ambition to play this way. That's the end vision, a club which plays this way and develops players that play this way - so they can be sold to elite clubs who mostly play this way.

We could be a bit more Brentford or Luton and a bit less Brighton, but the transition is killer - as we found out in League Two. Getting this started wrecks teams. Once it's the culture you can adjust far more easily.

You absolutely CAN go up the leagues playing different styles (though less so the ol' Wycombe hoof, that's almost always cooked a level up).

I do think this is where I have a problem. The best ROI is to try and copy man city because then we can sell our players to the biggest clubs for huge money is….i dunno it’s just like saying the best pension is to play the national lottery every week. I mean sure you might win big but you almost certainly won’t. And the best pension is the one you put your money in that gives a return.

The return that we can actually see is the revenue from gaining promotion.

I’d also contest that the plan you outline revolves around having a very good academy. And we don’t. So therein lies the rub. You want that blueprint of playing throughout the club yet we have a downgraded academy and are instead borrowing the players from the sides we want to sell our own to.

If it’s the lottery pension plan then it’s that without buying any tickets.

[GhostoftheBok]

Sorry for the brevity, how much ROI do we have?

Equal brevity, pretty decent for football.

The business is much more valuable than it was at the time of purchase and the football department is night and day.

[Worthy4England]

Sorry for the brevity, how much ROI do we have?

Equal brevity, pretty decent for football.

The business is much more valuable than it was at the time of purchase and the football department is night and day.

That's not answered the question. How much measurable ROI do we have? What is it actually? The business is more valuable because the investors have taken equity...whether anyone would buy it returning their investment is pretty doubtful

[GhostoftheBok]

That's not answered the question. How much measurable ROI do we have? What is it actually? The business is more valuable because the investors have taken equity...whether anyone would buy it returning their investment is pretty doubtful

No, it hasn't. To give you a proper answer I'd have to do weeks of work that I'm absolutely not doing.

I'm happy to discuss the general rules and trends of football, but I'm not doing actual work for a forum chat. Nobody is paying me.

Even if they were I'd need more than public-facing documents to do it properly.

I'm not sure what you're asking for here, other than sparce generalities.

[BWFC_Insane]

Sorry for the brevity, how much ROI do we have?

Equal brevity, pretty decent for football.

The business is much more valuable than it was at the time of purchase and the football department is night and day.

That's not answered the question. How much measurable ROI do we have? What is it actually? The business is more valuable because the investors have taken equity...whether anyone would buy it returning their investment is pretty doubtful

And if we really want to argue about ROI would the business be worth more or less if we were in the championship with *insert hoof merchant manager* today or in league one with Evatt? We all know the former would be the more valuable business. By a distance.

[GhostoftheBok]

And if we really want to argue about ROI would the business be worth more or less if we were in the championship with *insert hoof merchant manager* today or in league one with Evatt? We all know the former would be the more valuable business. By a distance.

That's not the claim, though.

[Worthy4England]

That's not answered the question. How much measurable ROI do we have? What is it actually? The business is more valuable because the investors have taken equity...whether anyone would buy it returning their investment is pretty doubtful

No, it hasn't. To give you a proper answer I'd have to do weeks of work that I'm absolutely not doing.

I'm happy to discuss the general rules and trends of football, but I'm not doing actual work for a forum chat. Nobody is paying me.

Even if they were I'd need more than public-facing documents to do it properly.

I'm not sure what you're asking for here, other than sparce generalities.

I'm saying, I think your ROI contention is an unsubstantiated guess. We have certainly made investment and quite a chunk. I'm wondering about the return on it.

That's not to say some of the assets we currently have might not give us a return, just that I don't think they have yet and asset value in football clubs is notoriously flakey.

When we've flogged a couple for £10m like "the Brentford model" we were enamoured with, I'll happily say we're getting a return, and were we a Division up, there might be a case. I'm not seeing it at the moment.

[GhostoftheBok]

I'm saying, I think your ROI contention is an unsubstantiated guess. We have certainly made investment and quite a chunk. I'm wondering about the return on it.

Well that's easy then.

I didn't make a contention about this football club.

What I said was, "It's the most consistent return on investment."

I also said earlier that these things are viewed over the medium to long term.

I'm not making specific claims about the goings on behind the scenes at BWFC.

I would be guessing if I did so, yes.

[Worthy4England]

To be clear and to avoid any doubt - Evatt's way is not the only way to be successful. Nothing like.

It's the most consistent return on investment.

My bad. I thought these two statements following each other might have been somewhat related. Apologies.

[GhostoftheBok]

They were related. I just didn't make that claim.

Moving on, Birmingham look set to sign Lyndon Dykes. Matching his QPR wages, which are rumoured to be around £20k a week.

Erm...yeah.

[DJBlu]

That's not answered the question. How much measurable ROI do we have? What is it actually? The business is more valuable because the investors have taken equity...whether anyone would buy it returning their investment is pretty doubtful

I'm happy to discuss the general rules and trends of football, but I'm not doing actual work for a forum chat.

You mean I could get paid?

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Birmingham set to make their 14th summer signing in Rangers' Scott Wright, who previously interested Derby, PNE and Sheff Wed (per Darren Witcoop, usually reliable hack turned agent)

And per Pete O'Rourke, Wrexham have bid £750k for PNE's Will Keane, also chased by WBA and Cardiff. Bid rejected.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Let's hope he's more of a Shoretire than a Bradley

[GhostoftheBok]

Not many people were offering a fee rising to £25m for Shoretire.