The Great Art Debate

[William the White]

changed my mind about Vettriano about ten seconds ago...

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

changed my mind about Vettriano about ten seconds ago...

Ha, excellent!

The headline of this article in the Times says it for me: "Fame, wealth and fast women: where did Vettriano go wrong?"

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/ ... 077899.ece

So yes, a big part of my admiration for Vettriano lies in the fact that he somehow manages to make (a lot of) money by getting women to come and hang around in their skimpies.... long live the market!

[William the White]

changed my mind about Vettriano about ten seconds ago...

Ha, excellent!

The headline of this article in the Times says it for me: "Fame, wealth and fast women: where did Vettriano go wrong?"

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/ ... 077899.ece

So yes, a big part of my admiration for Vettriano lies in the fact that he somehow manages to make (a lot of) money by getting women to come and hang around in their skimpies.... long live the market!

Money bit we understand... We all like, some more than others... And some might even be jealous...

[Looks round at empty spaces where women in skimpies should be, and, somehow aren't...]

Good luck to him, obviously, but he isn't any kind of artist... And you and i both know it, don't we? He really is shit...

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Good luck to him, obviously, but he isn't any kind of artist... And you and i both know it, don't we? He really is shit...

I really don't understand people who make the argument in this way.... a little bit like people who dislike golf and choose to express this by denying its status as a sport.

No, I genuinely like his work. I agree there's not much to think about, but I think there's room for a bit of that in everyone's taste range.

Who knows, perhaps his femmes fatales just tap into my fetishes and my tastes will mature... though I doubt it.

[William the White]

Good luck to him, obviously, but he isn't any kind of artist... And you and i both know it, don't we? He really is shit...

I really don't understand people who make the argument in this way.... a little bit like people who dislike golf and choose to express this by denying its status as a sport.

No, I genuinely like his work. I agree there's not much to think about, but I think there's room for a bit of that in everyone's taste range.

Who knows, perhaps his femmes fatales just tap into my fetishes and my tastes will mature... though I doubt it.

you've shown plenty of good taste in a lot of your offerings on here, I reckon...

and vettriano is an artist if mills and boon novels are literature...

but the femmes fatales are very tasty...

[TANGODANCER]

It might just be that the Singing Butler works of Vetriano appeal to people with a sense of romanticism in their souls. Sort of sensual as opposed to the blatanly sexual. Takes all sorts to make an art gallery. If Emin and co can get in there some of Walt Disneys illustrators could make a fortune.

[William the White]

It might just be that the Singing Butler works of Vetriano appeal to people with a sense of romanticism in their souls. Sort of sensual as opposed to the blatanly sexual. Takes all sorts to make an art gallery. If Emin and co can get in there some of Walt Disneys illustrators could make a fortune.

and an appointment for the optician in their pocket...

[TANGODANCER]

It might just be that the Singing Butler works of Vetriano appeal to people with a sense of romanticism in their souls. Sort of sensual as opposed to the blatanly sexual. Takes all sorts to make an art gallery. If Emin and co can get in there some of Walt Disneys illustrators could make a fortune.

and an appointment for the optician in their pocket...

I know. I think I'm too old for redemtion now though. I should have learned not to feel good about the joyful light-hearted things in life and taken a course on " piles of bricks and unmade bed appreciation" years ago. Too late now.

[thebish]

you've shown plenty of good taste in a lot of your offerings on here, I reckon...

and vettriano is an artist if mills and boon novels are literature...

but the femmes fatales are very tasty...

I suspect this is always a circular argument - whether something IS art or IS literature or IS a sport - because, ultimately, it depends on how you choose to define the words "art", "literature" or "sport" - essentially a semantic discussion. If the two (or three) protagonists choose different definitions - then there's not much more to it than "yes it is" or "no it isn't". That's why I think it was slightly more interesting (though others might disagree) when we were discussing what we considered to be "great" art - because that involves a little more revelation about what makes us tick than a mere semantic discussion might prompt.

there are definitions of art that would include vetrianno
there are definitions of literature that would include mills & boon
there are definitions of sport that would include golf
to Wenger's chagrin there are definitions of "football" that would include Bolton!

but that doesn't really get us anywhere - it's pure semantics...

[William the White]

you've shown plenty of good taste in a lot of your offerings on here, I reckon...

and vettriano is an artist if mills and boon novels are literature...

but the femmes fatales are very tasty...

I suspect this is always a circular argument - whether something IS art or IS literature or IS a sport - because, ultimately, it depends on how you choose to define the words "art", "literature" or "sport" - essentially a semantic discussion. If the two (or three) protagonists choose different definitions - then there's not much more to it than "yes it is" or "no it isn't". That's why I think it was slightly more interesting (though others might disagree) when we were discussing what we considered to be "great" art - because that involves a little more revelation about what makes us tick than a mere semantic discussion might prompt.

there are definitions of art that would include vetrianno
there are definitions of literature that would include mills & boon
there are definitions of sport that would include golf
to Wenger's chagrin there are definitions of "football" that would include Bolton!

but that doesn't really get us anywhere - it's pure semantics...

The point I was making really... given the circularity of the argument, I know I'll never convince Tango that Emin is a significant artist - he doesn't like that puzzling, challenging stuff... He'll never convince me that Vettriano is any more engaging than the slow drying of paint on saccharine... when you are that far apart it can never be anything more than the odd quip... which I quite enjoy, and, judging by the regularity of his response, so does he...

I'm quite happy to recognise his literary appreciation of Lorca, Marquez and Neruda, and suspect he will not be round to shout the superior virtues of Mills and Boon anytime soon... Hence my last quip, even tho in a response to mummy...

[William the White]

there are definitions of literature that would include mills & boon

Ok - tell me one...

[Bruce Rioja]

I know I'll never convince Tango that Emin is a significant artist - he doesn't like that puzzling, challenging stuff......

Or being had for an Emporers-new-clothes type mug, I shouldn't wonder .

[William the White]

I know I'll never convince Tango that Emin is a significant artist - he doesn't like that puzzling, challenging stuff......

Or being had for an Emporers-new-clothes type mug, I shouldn't wonder .

I know I'll never convince Bruce Rioja that Emin is a significant artist - he doesn't like that puzzling, challenging stuff...

NEXT, PLEASE...

[TANGODANCER]

Everyone has the right to define what delights them and invokes pleasure. The Chairman of the Royal Academy of Art knows no more about what Joe Bloggs finds pleasure in than anyone else. He just thinks he does. A bit like a multi-billionaire buying a masterpiece just so he can get one up on his fellow millionaires. At least the things that please me are on my walls for all to see, not locked up in an underground vault with built-in death rays guarding it. IMO there's more bullshxt talked about art than politics....and that's saying something. The rules on both are usually made by the very rich and graded downwards accordingly. Bellini sculptures for the gentry, plaster ducks for the working class. Form an orderly queue there please.

[William the White]

Everyone has the right to define what delights them and invokes pleasure. The Chairman of the Royal Academy of Art knows no more about what Joe Bloggs finds pleasure in than anyone else. He just thinks he does. A bit like a multi-billionaire buying a masterpiece just so he can get one up on his fellow millionaires. At least the things that please me are on my walls for all to see, not locked up in an underground vault with built-in death rays guarding it. IMO there's more bullshxt talked about art than politics....and that's saying something. The rules on both are usually made by the very rich and graded downwards accordingly. Bellini sculptures for the gentry, plaster ducks for the working class. Form an orderly queue there please.

You noticed too!!!

[thebish]

there are definitions of literature that would include mills & boon

Ok - tell me one...

literature = "stories written in book form."

[Bruce Rioja]

I know I'll never convince Tango that Emin is a significant artist - he doesn't like that puzzling, challenging stuff......

Or being had for an Emporers-new-clothes type mug, I shouldn't wonder .

I know I'll never convince Bruce Rioja that Emin is a significant artist - he doesn't like that puzzling, challenging stuff...

NEXT, PLEASE...

Oh I love puzzling, challenging stuff. Perhaps it's best if I let you know if Tracy Emin ever comes up with any.

[William the White]

there are definitions of literature that would include mills & boon

Ok - tell me one...

literature = "stories written in book form."

Are all science graduates happy with the banal?

No need to reply - I know what you'll say - and it is definitely my fault for asking...

[William the White]

I know I'll never convince Tango that Emin is a significant artist - he doesn't like that puzzling, challenging stuff......

Or being had for an Emporers-new-clothes type mug, I shouldn't wonder .

I know I'll never convince Bruce Rioja that Emin is a significant artist - he doesn't like that puzzling, challenging stuff...

NEXT, PLEASE...

Oh I love puzzling, challenging stuff. Perhaps it's best if I let you know if Tracy Emin ever comes up with any.

By all means, no point in me returning the favour given the total failure so far...

[thebish]

there are definitions of literature that would include mills & boon

Ok - tell me one...

literature = "stories written in book form."

Are all science graduates happy with the banal?

No need to reply - I know what you'll say - and it is definitely my fault for asking...

you didn't ask for a definition I was happy with - you just asked for a definition that would include mills & boon! You and I would probably dispute that definition (but others wouldn't) - which was entirely my point - that arguing over definitions is simply semantics, and if people debate using different definitions of the terms being debated - then they are not really debating at all - but talking at cross-purposes.