The Great Art Debate

[thebish]

I've read a bit more, I was putting Jason in to the same boat as Odysseus. So no debate then mummy...or rather I have no objection to the theory.

I'm not sure this adds very much... it's just interesting to note that Capri is traditionally thought of as being part of Odysseus's journey, especially by artists and writers in the 19th centrury.

as evidenced in this famous example...

[Montreal Wanderer]

Based on Bobo's map Ulysses needed a new navigator. He should have walked after his first stop.

[thebish]

Based on Bobo's map Ulysses needed a new navigator. He should have walked after his first stop.

keep up - he had a car!!

[TANGODANCER]

I've read a bit more, I was putting Jason in to the same boat as Odysseus. So no debate then mummy...or rather I have no objection to the theory.

I'm not sure this adds very much... it's just interesting to note that Capri is traditionally thought of as being part of Odysseus's journey, especially by artists and writers in the 19th centrury.

Here you go ...

Beat me to it Bobo. Google Image search of Homeric maps, Oddessy, Illiad etc throws up loads.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Based on Bobo's map Ulysses needed a new navigator. He should have walked after his first stop.

keep up - he had a car!!

And it took him ten years. Ten years! Petrol stations were hard to find in those days.

[Bijou Bob]

I wasn't sure whether to rant this in the angry thread, but its arts related so.....

Not Mrs Bob is off to London this summer holidays with her son for a few days. Looking online for theatre tickets yesterday she spotted that Charlie and the Chocolate Factory is on in the West End and tried to book tickets. No concessions, dress circle £148 each. Cheapest tickets around the 90 quid each mark

So, let me get this straight. In an age of austerity, we fund the luvvies to put on a show for the benefit of the people and they take the money, price a UK family out of the market and rip of the American and Jap tourists for almost 600 quid for a family of 4.

Bastards. Time to slash the arts budget.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I wasn't sure whether to rant this in the angry thread, but its arts related so.....

Not Mrs Bob is off to London this summer holidays with her son for a few days. Looking online for theatre tickets yesterday she spotted that Charlie and the Chocolate Factory is on in the West End and tried to book tickets. No concessions, dress circle £148 each. Cheapest tickets around the 90 quid each mark

So, let me get this straight. In an age of austerity, we fund the luvvies to put on a show for the benefit of the people and they take the money, price a UK family out of the market and rip of the American and Jap tourists for almost 600 quid for a family of 4.

Bastards. Time to slash the arts budget.

I think it should be in the politics thread personally...

[Prufrock]

You're all a lot more confident on where Odysseus went than any Classicist I've ever met! I seem to remember that folk seemed pretty certain that Scylla and Charibdis were supposedly off the coast of Italy, although I thought they 'were' closer to Sicily than Capri.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

You're all a lot more confident on where Odysseus went than any Classicist I've ever met! I seem to remember that folk seemed pretty certain that Scylla and Charibdis were supposedly off the coast of Italy, although I thought they 'were' closer to Sicily than Capri.

I'm not confident at all. I had him mixed up with Jason. All I know for certain is that Jason went to Colchis and Colchis is the coastline where Georgia is now.

[Montreal Wanderer]

You're all a lot more confident on where Odysseus went than any Classicist I've ever met! I seem to remember that folk seemed pretty certain that Scylla and Charibdis were supposedly off the coast of Italy, although I thought they 'were' closer to Sicily than Capri.

I was told at school they were between Sicily and the mainland. Of course that was some sixty years ago so they may have moved.

In reviewing my old notes I discover my meory failed me. It was Scylla and Charybdis that were in the straits of Messina, not the Sirens. Apparently]Homer says they lived between Scylla and Aeaea. However, Capri and many other places are in the mix.

[William the White]

I wasn't sure whether to rant this in the angry thread, but its arts related so.....

Not Mrs Bob is off to London this summer holidays with her son for a few days. Looking online for theatre tickets yesterday she spotted that Charlie and the Chocolate Factory is on in the West End and tried to book tickets. No concessions, dress circle £148 each. Cheapest tickets around the 90 quid each mark

So, let me get this straight. In an age of austerity, we fund the luvvies to put on a show for the benefit of the people and they take the money, price a UK family out of the market and rip of the American and Jap tourists for almost 600 quid for a family of 4.

Bastards. Time to slash the arts budget.

West End theatres strictly a commercial op. no state funding for them.

Of course, if the show has originated in the subsidised sector, there has been funding support before the West End run, and the subsidised theatre is now coining it - so the original use of subsidy is being repaid.

But you are right - West End prices are abominable.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

https://www.artfinder.com/story/william ... 7-41363709" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Art of the Day - a bit of Hogarth and me in Art Detective mode.

[bobo the clown]

You're all a lot more confident on where Odysseus went than any Classicist I've ever met! I seem to remember that folk seemed pretty certain that Scylla and Charibdis were supposedly off the coast of Italy, although I thought they 'were' closer to Sicily than Capri.

I'm not confident at all. I had him mixed up with Jason. All I know for certain is that Jason went to Colchis and Colchis is the coastline where Georgia is now.

What's with the "I'm not confident malarkey ???

I've given you a map !!!

ffs.

[Montreal Wanderer]

https://www.artfinder.com/story/william ... 7-41363709

Art of the Day - a bit of Hogarth and me in Art Detective mode.

Dear Sherlock:
How can a cat be murderously transfixed by a bird? The phrase makes no sense to me. I am also not convinced that a cat and bird appearing in a Madonna picture necessarily influenced Hogarth.

[Montreal Wanderer]

https://www.artfinder.com/story/william ... 7-41363709

Art of the Day - a bit of Hogarth and me in Art Detective mode.

Okay, I've gone into detective mode. This family group is alleged to be the children of David Graham, Apothecary to George II. King George had two apothecaries named Graham - Thomas and his son Daniel. It was Daniel who commissioned the painting. regarding this I read:

Daniel Graham, was born about 1695. He succeeded his father as apothecary to King George II and afterwards to King George III. He was also apothecary at Chelsea College Hospital. Residing at 11 Pall Mall, Daniel was twice married. His first wife (who he may have married at Westminster in April 1729) may have been named Elizabeth Sibbald. She probably died soon after giving birth to a daughter,

1. Henrietta Catherine Graham, apparently born at Wotton in Surrey on 8th November 1733 and baptized at St.James's, Westminster on 30th November 1733. On 6th May 1752 she married Sydenham Malthus of The Rookery and Albury in Surrey. They were second cousins, being related through the Portman family.

Daniel Graham married 2ndly, about 1734, Mary Crisp. By her he had issue

1. Richard Robert Graham, of whom later.
2. Thomas Graham, born 18th August 1740. He died young, probably in 1742.
2. Anna Maria Graham, born 7th July 1738 and baptized at St.James's, Westminster on 1st August 1738. She was to marry (as his 2nd wife) THOMAS RYVES of Ranston Hall in Dorset at St.James's, Westminster, on 22nd September 1757.

In 1742 Daniel commissioned William Hogarth (1697-1764) to paint his children. When Hogarth began to sketch the children for the work, the youngest child Thomas was still alive. However by the time the painting was completed later that year, the youngster had died. This probably accounts for what are said to be some symbolic references to death appearing in the portrait, such as the winged cherub carrying a sickle above a clock in the background behind him.

The children are (from left to right) the infant Thomas sitting in a gold-leaf gilded go-cart; Henrietta in a blue dress holding two cherries; Anna Maria in a flower-print dress; and Richard who plays the sérinette (bird organ). Celebrated for its somewhat idealistic portrayal of childhood, it is also said to be Hogarth's most ambitious portrayal of children. Measuring over 160 x 180 cm, It has become one of the most famous paintings of its genre and is now in The National Gallery, Trafalgar Square, London. It also shows what a comfortable lifestyle this family enjoyed.

Daniel Graham died in 1788 and was buried in St.Mary's Church, Harrow on the Hill where there is a wall plaque to his memory. Below it can be seen the arms of the Graham family. His will was proved on 27th March 1778.

So give whoever wrote the blurb a hard time and show how educated you are.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

https://www.artfinder.com/story/william ... 7-41363709

Art of the Day - a bit of Hogarth and me in Art Detective mode.

Dear Sherlock:
How can a cat be murderously transfixed by a bird? The phrase makes no sense to me. I am also not convinced that a cat and bird appearing in a Madonna picture necessarily influenced Hogarth.

The cat was rendered motionless by the bird and the possibility of its murder... yes it is clumsily worded.

[Montreal Wanderer]

https://www.artfinder.com/story/william ... 7-41363709

Art of the Day - a bit of Hogarth and me in Art Detective mode.

Okay, I've gone into detective mode. This family group is alleged to be the children of David Graham, Apothecary to George II. King George had two apothecaries named Graham - Thomas and his son Daniel. It was Daniel who commissioned the painting. regarding this I read:

Daniel Graham, was born about 1695. He succeeded his father as apothecary to King George II and afterwards to King George III. He was also apothecary at Chelsea College Hospital. Residing at 11 Pall Mall, Daniel was twice married. His first wife (who he may have married at Westminster in April 1729) may have been named Elizabeth Sibbald. She probably died soon after giving birth to a daughter,

1. Henrietta Catherine Graham, apparently born at Wotton in Surrey on 8th November 1733 and baptized at St.James's, Westminster on 30th November 1733. On 6th May 1752 she married Sydenham Malthus of The Rookery and Albury in Surrey. They were second cousins, being related through the Portman family.

Daniel Graham married 2ndly, about 1734, Mary Crisp. By her he had issue

1. Richard Robert Graham, of whom later.
2. Thomas Graham, born 18th August 1740. He died young, probably in 1742.
2. Anna Maria Graham, born 7th July 1738 and baptized at St.James's, Westminster on 1st August 1738. She was to marry (as his 2nd wife) THOMAS RYVES of Ranston Hall in Dorset at St.James's, Westminster, on 22nd September 1757.

In 1742 Daniel commissioned William Hogarth (1697-1764) to paint his children. When Hogarth began to sketch the children for the work, the youngest child Thomas was still alive. However by the time the painting was completed later that year, the youngster had died. This probably accounts for what are said to be some symbolic references to death appearing in the portrait, such as the winged cherub carrying a sickle above a clock in the background behind him.

The children are (from left to right) the infant Thomas sitting in a gold-leaf gilded go-cart; Henrietta in a blue dress holding two cherries; Anna Maria in a flower-print dress; and Richard who plays the sérinette (bird organ). Celebrated for its somewhat idealistic portrayal of childhood, it is also said to be Hogarth's most ambitious portrayal of children. Measuring over 160 x 180 cm, It has become one of the most famous paintings of its genre and is now in The National Gallery, Trafalgar Square, London. It also shows what a comfortable lifestyle this family enjoyed.

Daniel Graham died in 1788 and was buried in St.Mary's Church, Harrow on the Hill where there is a wall plaque to his memory. Below it can be seen the arms of the Graham family. His will was proved on 27th March 1778.

So give whoever wrote the blurb a hard time and show how educated you are.

[TANGODANCER]

I had the cat doing a bit of wishful thinking, given the sturdy cage. Motive, but no opportunity.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

https://www.artfinder.com/story/william ... 7-41363709

Art of the Day - a bit of Hogarth and me in Art Detective mode.

Dear Sherlock:
How can a cat be murderously transfixed by a bird? The phrase makes no sense to me. I am also not convinced that a cat and bird appearing in a Madonna picture necessarily influenced Hogarth.

The cat was rendered motionless by the bird and the possibility of its murder... yes it is clumsily worded.

And I'm not saying it 'necessarily' influenced Hogarth.

However, the unusual little detail of the cat watching the bird is one I don't think is that common. Hogarth was is known to have collected old master prints and to have used some elements from these prints in some of his paintings. The Barocci painting happens to be one of those paintings which became famous through the decent print version that was made of it.

All of those factors coming together do make me wonder.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

So give whoever wrote the blurb a hard time and show how educated you are.

I won't bother, on this occasion - how on earth did you spot that?!