The Great Art Debate

[Montreal Wanderer]

The ramrod up your rear has become flexible.

Thanks, Monty.

It's true - much more relaxed.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

So it's all kicked off at the Bury Sculpture Centre. Who knew!

http://new.a-n.co.uk/news/single/bury-s ... ontroversy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyone been?

[William the White]

I note that Tracy Emin's famous/notorious installation My Bed is on sale with a price tag of £800,000-£1.2 million.

Her dealer says that is far too cheap.

Tango is now having kittens...

[Worthy4England]

I note that Tracy Emin's famous/notorious installation My Bed is on sale with a price tag of £800,000-£1.2 million.

Her dealer says that is far too cheap.

Tango is now having kittens...

I'll wait for the DFS Summer Sale. They'll have them on decent 60 months terms & interest free, with nothing to pay until June 2015*

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I note that Tracy Emin's famous/notorious installation My Bed is on sale with a price tag of £800,000-£1.2 million.

Her dealer says that is far too cheap.

I do think it will go for more than that - even as historical memorabilia it's worth more than that.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I note that Tracy Emin's famous/notorious installation My Bed is on sale with a price tag of £800,000-£1.2 million.

Her dealer says that is far too cheap.

I do think it will go for more than that - even as historical memorabilia it's worth more than that.

That just illustrates how ridiculous the art market is, almost as ridiculous as the football transfer market.

[Bruce Rioja]

If a fool and their money are that easily parted, how did they get together in the first place?

[Worthy4England]

I note that Tracy Emin's famous/notorious installation My Bed is on sale with a price tag of £800,000-£1.2 million.

Her dealer says that is far too cheap.

I do think it will go for more than that - even as historical memorabilia it's worth more than that.

That just illustrates how ridiculous the art market is, almost as ridiculous as the football transfer market.

Normally, if a work fails to realise its reserve price, it is removed from sale. Without a reserve (often the lower figure of the auction house's estimated price range) there could be some bargains for public institutions – and corresponding embarrassment for living artists. In practice, according to art-world expert Louisa Buck, the artists' own dealers will be "poised like cobras" to bid on the works, if necessary purchasing them if they show signs of selling for low prices. "Galleries won't want to see their artists' prices take a nosedive."

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I note that Tracy Emin's famous/notorious installation My Bed is on sale with a price tag of £800,000-£1.2 million.

Her dealer says that is far too cheap.

I do think it will go for more than that - even as historical memorabilia it's worth more than that.

That just illustrates how ridiculous the art market is, almost as ridiculous as the football transfer market.

Normally, if a work fails to realise its reserve price, it is removed from sale. Without a reserve (often the lower figure of the auction house's estimated price range) there could be some bargains for public institutions – and corresponding embarrassment for living artists. In practice, according to art-world expert Louisa Buck, the artists' own dealers will be "poised like cobras" to bid on the works, if necessary purchasing them if they show signs of selling for low prices. "Galleries won't want to see their artists' prices take a nosedive."

I call that "insider dealing". Plus auction houses aren't supposed to "bid off the wall", but the cnuts do, especially the big name barstewards... I've seen it in action.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I call that "insider dealing". Plus auction houses aren't supposed to "bid off the wall", but the cnuts do, especially the big name barstewards... I've seen it in action.

The art market is the worst market of all for insider dealing... and is totally free of regulation. I have had very frank conversations with people in which they have described their own insider dealing and price manipulation, apparently without thinking there is anything wrong with it.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I call that "insider dealing". Plus auction houses aren't supposed to "bid off the wall", but the cnuts do, especially the big name barstewards... I've seen it in action.

The art market is the worst market of all for insider dealing... and is totally free of regulation. I have had very frank conversations with people in which they have described their own insider dealing and price manipulation, apparently without thinking there is anything wrong with it.

I don't know where the law draws the boundaries and how they are applied but I know for a fact that if you artificially inflate the price of something for sale during an auction process that it contravenes the law in a manner that could cause the perpetrators to spend some time at Her Maj's Pleasure. But usually they spend lots of her maj's portrait at their own pleasure.

[William the White]

So it's all kicked off at the Bury Sculpture Centre. Who knew!

http://new.a-n.co.uk/news/single/bury-s ... ontroversy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyone been?

Going tomorrow. Will report.

[TANGODANCER]

I note that Tracy Emin's famous/notorious installation My Bed is on sale with a price tag of £800,000-£1.2 million.

Her dealer says that is far too cheap.

I do think it will go for more than that - even as historical memorabilia it's worth more than that.

Seriously, Mummy...how?

[thebish]

I note that Tracy Emin's famous/notorious installation My Bed is on sale with a price tag of £800,000-£1.2 million.

Her dealer says that is far too cheap.

I do think it will go for more than that - even as historical memorabilia it's worth more than that.

Seriously, Mummy...how?

pecause people often pay a lot of money to own famous things...

winston churchill's hat is "just a hat" and you could buy a similar hat off ebay for pennies... but the actual one that belonged to winston is a famous hat - so someone would pay a lot of money for it.

Emin's unmade bed is famous - same thing applies.

[Prufrock]

Yup. I can see not getting it as art. Can't see not getting in as 'history'.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I note that Tracy Emin's famous/notorious installation My Bed is on sale with a price tag of £800,000-£1.2 million.

Her dealer says that is far too cheap.

I do think it will go for more than that - even as historical memorabilia it's worth more than that.

Seriously, Mummy...how?

pecause people often pay a lot of money to own famous things...

winston churchill's hat is "just a hat" and you could buy a similar hat off ebay for pennies... but the actual one that belonged to winston is a famous hat - so someone would pay a lot of money for it.

Emin's unmade bed is famous - same thing applies.

Indeed - I don't have much to add.

Listen to the start of this podcast: http://podcast.ft.com/p/2187" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Emin's bed is like the bricks - something that provoked such outrage it started a genuinely impassioned public debate about what art is and what it is for and as such is a big cultural milestone. Is there a more famous British art work today?

[TANGODANCER]

pecause people often pay a lot of money to own famous things...

winston churchill's hat is "just a hat" and you could buy a similar hat off ebay for pennies... but the actual one that belonged to winston is a famous hat - so someone would pay a lot of money for it.

Emin's unmade bed is famous - same thing applies.

Really? Well thanks for insulting my intelligence, but I was hoping for something a little more than "because it is", that's why I addressed the query at Mummy. I wanted him to say possibly that the art experts, agents and maybe even good old Tracey herself, get together and play think of a number they can get out of some silly sod with money to burn. Not for something of value or real historical interest, but for an old M.F.I bed with a pile of dirty sheets on it. The real art is surely in conning the public, is it not? That's what I was asking our resident man in the middle.

[thebish]

pecause people often pay a lot of money to own famous things...

winston churchill's hat is "just a hat" and you could buy a similar hat off ebay for pennies... but the actual one that belonged to winston is a famous hat - so someone would pay a lot of money for it.

Emin's unmade bed is famous - same thing applies.

Really? Well thanks for insulting my intelligence...

[William the White]

pecause people often pay a lot of money to own famous things...

winston churchill's hat is "just a hat" and you could buy a similar hat off ebay for pennies... but the actual one that belonged to winston is a famous hat - so someone would pay a lot of money for it.

Emin's unmade bed is famous - same thing applies.

Really? Well thanks for insulting my intelligence, but I was hoping for something a little more than "because it is", that's why I addressed the query at Mummy. I wanted him to say possibly that the art experts, agents and maybe even good old Tracey herself, get together and play think of a number they can get out of some silly sod with money to burn. Not for something of value or real historical interest, but for an old M.F.I bed with a pile of dirty sheets on it. The real art is surely in conning the public, is it not? That's what I was asking our resident man in the middle.

It's your repeated accusation about Emin. It doesn't stand up. She isn't conning anyone. She is producing works of art that interrogate her closest subject. Herself. She isn't trying to fool or trick. These are things that are crucial to her art. You don't have to like it. You don't have to respect it. But it is not a con trick by the artist.

It offends your taste, that's all. You are entitled to be offended, outraged, disgusted etc. But I don't feel you can describe her as a confidence trickster unless motivated by prejudice.

I've never seen My Bed - though I would like to. I'm not sure what my response would be. I suspect I'd like it, possibly very much. That would be because in some way it resonated with me, made me think, made me feel. Even if I hated it and rejected it though I don't think I'd feel 'conned'.

[TANGODANCER]

It's your repeated accusation about Emin. It doesn't stand up. She isn't conning anyone. She is producing works of art that interrogate her closest subject. Herself. She isn't trying to fool or trick. These are things that are crucial to her art. You don't have to like it. You don't have to respect it. But it is not a con trick by the artist.

It offends your taste, that's all. You are entitled to be offended, outraged, disgusted etc. But I don't feel you can describe her as a confidence trickster unless motivated by prejudice.

I've never seen My Bed - though I would like to. I'm not sure what my response would be. I suspect I'd like it, possibly very much. That would be because in some way it resonated with me, made me think, made me feel. Even if I hated it and rejected it though I don't think I'd feel 'conned'.

I don't know the first thing about Tracey Emin as a person Will (I have no desire to) and in that respect I have no prejudice against her. As an artist she draws like a five year old and seems obsessed with her own fanny and now she's moved into neon. I'm happy to accept I can't accept her as any form of artist, but that's just me, so best thing is for me to just ignore her....if I can avoid her..

http://tinyurl.com/nc3t5aw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;